[sword-devel] Parallel Display of Differing V11n Systems

Troy A. Griffitts scribe at crosswire.org
Thu Jul 4 09:01:43 MST 2013

We have a design in place which allows for the code example I previously 


The engine recognized that the versifications are different and calls a 
facility to do the translation.  We have not finalized on this facility 
yet. As also mentioned, ????? has submitted an implementation (long long 
ago) available here (not sure if this is his latest version, as he is 
using it now in Bibletime Mobile):


I am happy for his submission.  We would like to include it or something 
based off of it, but before we finalize something in the engine for 
everyone to use, I want to be sure we handle the basic issues mentioned 
in my preceding email on this.  I am not convinced I have mentioned all 
issues with implementing a parallel display frontend because I have not 
yet tried to implement a parallel display frontend which tries to 
implement the 'superset' view described in my previous email.

Chris, you are in an ideal position to give feedback on this-- though it 
won't be as helpful for me or the solution within the SWORD engine, 
because I'm sure JSword has a completely different facility for 
versification classes internally.  But regardless, your experience and 
feedback are invaluable as you drudge through this task.  Let us know 
what you decide.


On 07/04/2013 05:29 PM, Chris Burrell wrote:
> I'm guess I've misunderstood as Ps.51 shows the wrong alignment 
> between Hebrew and English for the first two verses... What are these 
> "translation facilities currently designed in the engine"?
> Chris
> On 4 July 2013 16:24, Chris Burrell <chris at burrell.me.uk 
> <mailto:chris at burrell.me.uk>> wrote:
>     I'm afraid, I'm not sure I follow. The screenshot looks ok, but
>     then I don't read Greek or Hebrew so I don't really know.
>     Are you saying Sword already has translation from 1 versification
>     to another transparently, by "the v11n translation facilities
>     currently designed in the engine"? From previous threads, I
>     thought that was one major thing that was still being worked on.
>     So you already do have all the mappings to convert from one
>     versification to another?
>     I'm confused!
>     Chris
>     On 4 July 2013 16:02, Troy A. Griffitts <scribe at crosswire.org
>     <mailto:scribe at crosswire.org>> wrote:
>         Hi guys. The questions that need answers in this thread are
>         logically complex and are one of the reasons we haven't
>         finalized any additions to the core SWORD library to support
>         this-- though I greatly appreciate the contributions made by
>         ?????.
>         Take, for example our standard 4 Bible web display preset for
>         "OT Scholar", at Daniel chapter 3, around veres 23:
>         http://crosswire.org/study/parallelstudy.jsp?del=all&add=NASB&add=WLC&add=KJV&add=LXX&key=Dan.3.23#cv
>         How should this look?
>         The problem, for the uninitiated, is that The Prayer of
>         Azariah and the Song of the Three Jews in the LXX is inserted
>         between what we traditionally think of as verses 23 and 24.
>         This makes verse 24 in the KJV very different content than
>         what should be verse 24 in the LXX (our current LXX displayed
>         from the link above does not include Apocryphal content)--
>         verse 24 in the LXX being the first part of the Apocryphal
>         content, thus verse 91 in the LXX picking back up where verse
>         24, in say the NASB (without the apocryphal insertion), continues.
>         The web interface above always displays in windows of 1
>         chapter. Thus the user has asked for Chapter 3 of Daniel,
>         centered on verse 23.
>         There are a few questions to answer.
>         What if they had asked for verse 24?
>         What content do we show?
>         Use case: The user is a protestant pastor, has chosen NASB as
>         his primary Bible, and is interested in seeing the parallel
>         verses to the NASB in the other texts. He is not interested in
>         seeing apocryphal insertions. He primarily cares about the
>         NASB and only glances at the content from the other modules
>         when interested in seeing the parallel.
>         This is how the web frontend, and all current SWORD based
>         frontends *should* currently work with no code changes, with
>         the v11n translation facilities currently designed in the
>         engine. It uses the first module as the "master" and iterated
>         its key and pulls the equivalent verses from the other
>         modules. The current facility in the engine allows for:
>         lxx->setKey(nasb->getKey())
>         resulting in the LXX being positioned to the equivalent verse
>         (e.g., v91 from nasb v24)-- if translation tables (for example
>         from ?????) were in place.
>         But this use case, while likely the most dominant, is not the
>         most scholarly. A scholar would likely wish to see a
>         *superset* of all verses from all displayed parallel Bibles,
>         inserting gaps where they should go in the other text which do
>         not contain the verses.
>         Not too hard to imagine, but what is the programmer-friendly
>         API interface for this? Harder to imagine. You can't simply
>         choose one of the modules to iterate.
>         Possibly:
>         ListKey superset;
>         superset << kjv->getKey() << nasb->getKey() << lxx->getKey()
>         << wlc->getKey();
>         then one could iterate the superset listkey.
>         This would leave the work of figuring out where the gaps
>         should go up to ListKey, or something in the translation
>         system in VerseKey which backs ListKey.
>         It's a complex problem, but we haven't even talked about the
>         issue of reordered content. Sometime Romans 16:25-27a
>         (obviously excluding the subscriptio) is located after Romans
>         14:23. This is an example of reordering. It doesn't give
>         problems from our "chapter window display" because the
>         reordering is across different chapters and you could still
>         pick your poison from the 2 choices above for display logic,
>         but what about display windows which allow more than a single
>         chapter, like BibleDesktop? Now the question arises. If you've
>         chosen to build a superset, where do the gaps go? You could
>         reasonably add them to either place (after Romans 14:23 in the
>         modules which don't include the doxology here or after Romans
>         16:24 for modules which don't include the doxology here). How
>         do you decide? How should the program decide?
>         Lot's of questions and input we all need to give and a working
>         proof of concept for at least a single frontend before we
>         commit to something for everyone to use in the engine.
>         Obviously not a 1.7.x issue, but feel free to continue to give
>         input.
>         Troy
>         On 07/04/2013 03:26 PM, David Haslam wrote:
>             And (for example) if you wish to query the whole of the
>             JPS module using book
>             names, it will not do to specify *Gen-Mal*.
>             You'd need to remember that in the Tanakh, the last book
>             is *II Chronicles*.
>             --
>             View this message in context:
>             http://sword-dev.350566.n4.nabble.com/Versifications-and-verse-order-tp4652697p4652712.html
>             Sent from the SWORD Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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