[sword-devel] Parallel Display of Differing V11n Systems (was: Versifications and verse order)

Chris Burrell chris at burrell.me.uk
Thu Jul 4 08:29:52 MST 2013

I'm guess I've misunderstood as Ps.51 shows the wrong alignment between
Hebrew and English for the first two verses... What are these "translation
facilities currently designed in the engine"?

On 4 July 2013 16:24, Chris Burrell <chris at burrell.me.uk> wrote:

> I'm afraid, I'm not sure I follow. The screenshot looks ok, but then I
> don't read Greek or Hebrew so I don't really know.
> Are you saying Sword already has translation from 1 versification to
> another transparently, by " the v11n translation facilities currently
> designed in the engine"? From previous threads, I thought that was one
> major thing that was still being worked on. So you already do have all the
> mappings to convert from one versification to another?
> I'm confused!
> Chris
> On 4 July 2013 16:02, Troy A. Griffitts <scribe at crosswire.org> wrote:
>> Hi guys. The questions that need answers in this thread are logically
>> complex and are one of the reasons we haven't finalized any additions to
>> the core SWORD library to support this-- though I greatly appreciate the
>> contributions made by Костя.
>> Take, for example our standard 4 Bible web display preset for "OT
>> Scholar", at Daniel chapter 3, around veres 23:
>> http://crosswire.org/study/**parallelstudy.jsp?del=all&add=**
>> NASB&add=WLC&add=KJV&add=LXX&**key=Dan.3.23#cv<http://crosswire.org/study/parallelstudy.jsp?del=all&add=NASB&add=WLC&add=KJV&add=LXX&key=Dan.3.23#cv>
>> How should this look?
>> The problem, for the uninitiated, is that The Prayer of Azariah and the
>> Song of the Three Jews in the LXX is inserted between what we traditionally
>> think of as verses 23 and 24. This makes verse 24 in the KJV very different
>> content than what should be verse 24 in the LXX (our current LXX displayed
>> from the link above does not include Apocryphal content)-- verse 24 in the
>> LXX being the first part of the Apocryphal content, thus verse 91 in the
>> LXX picking back up where verse 24, in say the NASB (without the apocryphal
>> insertion), continues.
>> The web interface above always displays in windows of 1 chapter. Thus the
>> user has asked for Chapter 3 of Daniel, centered on verse 23.
>> There are a few questions to answer.
>> What if they had asked for verse 24?
>> What content do we show?
>> Use case: The user is a protestant pastor, has chosen NASB as his primary
>> Bible, and is interested in seeing the parallel verses to the NASB in the
>> other texts. He is not interested in seeing apocryphal insertions. He
>> primarily cares about the NASB and only glances at the content from the
>> other modules when interested in seeing the parallel.
>> This is how the web frontend, and all current SWORD based frontends
>> *should* currently work with no code changes, with the v11n translation
>> facilities currently designed in the engine. It uses the first module as
>> the "master" and iterated its key and pulls the equivalent verses from the
>> other modules. The current facility in the engine allows for:
>> lxx->setKey(nasb->getKey())
>> resulting in the LXX being positioned to the equivalent verse (e.g., v91
>> from nasb v24)-- if translation tables (for example from Костя) were in
>> place.
>> But this use case, while likely the most dominant, is not the most
>> scholarly. A scholar would likely wish to see a *superset* of all verses
>> from all displayed parallel Bibles, inserting gaps where they should go in
>> the other text which do not contain the verses.
>> Not too hard to imagine, but what is the programmer-friendly API
>> interface for this? Harder to imagine. You can't simply choose one of the
>> modules to iterate.
>> Possibly:
>> ListKey superset;
>> superset << kjv->getKey() << nasb->getKey() << lxx->getKey() <<
>> wlc->getKey();
>> then one could iterate the superset listkey.
>> This would leave the work of figuring out where the gaps should go up to
>> ListKey, or something in the translation system in VerseKey which backs
>> ListKey.
>> It's a complex problem, but we haven't even talked about the issue of
>> reordered content. Sometime Romans 16:25-27a (obviously excluding the
>> subscriptio) is located after Romans 14:23. This is an example of
>> reordering. It doesn't give problems from our "chapter window display"
>> because the reordering is across different chapters and you could still
>> pick your poison from the 2 choices above for display logic, but what about
>> display windows which allow more than a single chapter, like BibleDesktop?
>> Now the question arises. If you've chosen to build a superset, where do the
>> gaps go? You could reasonably add them to either place (after Romans 14:23
>> in the modules which don't include the doxology here or after Romans 16:24
>> for modules which don't include the doxology here). How do you decide? How
>> should the program decide?
>> Lot's of questions and input we all need to give and a working proof of
>> concept for at least a single frontend before we commit to something for
>> everyone to use in the engine.
>> Obviously not a 1.7.x issue, but feel free to continue to give input.
>> Troy
>> On 07/04/2013 03:26 PM, David Haslam wrote:
>>> And (for example) if you wish to query the whole of the JPS module using
>>> book
>>> names, it will not do to specify *Gen-Mal*.
>>> You'd need to remember that in the Tanakh, the last book is *II
>>> Chronicles*.
>>> --
>>> View this message in context: http://sword-dev.350566.n4.**
>>> nabble.com/Versifications-and-**verse-order-tp4652697p4652712.**html<http://sword-dev.350566.n4.nabble.com/Versifications-and-verse-order-tp4652697p4652712.html>
>>> Sent from the SWORD Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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