[sword-devel] KJV2006 progress report

Thu Mar 9 05:28:51 MST 2006

 From the discussions, paragraphs may split a verse, but by and large 
contain verses.
Let's assume that a presentation semantic is that:
First paragraphs in a chapter are handled specially, with the verse 
number is not emitted and the first letter is made to span the start of 
3 lines in a fancy font
Each paragraph is followed by a blank line.
Subsequent paragraphs are indented. followed by the verse number, 
appropriately decorated, then the pilcrow, paragraph mark and finally 
the verse text.
Also, at the end of each verse, one footnote marker is placed for all 
the notes regarding that verse.
(So, in this presentation semantic, paragraph begin and ends are 
important and so are verse begin and verse ends)

Given a well-formed, valid OSIS this is relatively easy to do with xslt.

Couple of questions using the following "pseudocode" construct? (leaving 
out most attributes)
Purpose of the question is to determine how to transform the good OSIS 
into a osis2mod acceptable form using xslt.
Also, it helps determine whether the current KJV paragraph marker is 
best positioned at the end of a verse or the beginning of a verse.
<chapter>
  <title>Chapter Heading</title>
  <p>
    <verse sid=1/>v1<verse eid=1/>
    <verse sid=2/>v2<verse eid=2/>
    ...
    <verse sid=m/>vm<verse eid=m/>
    </p><p>
    <verse sid=n/>vn<verse eid=n/>
    ...
    <verse sid=x/>vxa</p><p>vxb<verse eid=x/>
    ...
    <verse sid=z/>vz<verse eid=z/>
 </p>
</chapter>

We could also add paragraphs starting and ending

Last time I checked, osis2mod did not find a verse that started 
immediately after a paragraph start.

If it did, what would it look like in a module (if the bug were fixed)?
Today, it would be something like (Showing a verse per line):
<title type="x-preverse">Chapter Heading</title>v1
v2
...
vm
vn
...
vxavxb
...
vz

I don't think that osis2mod preserves much content that stands between 
verses.

If osis2mod is changed to handle such a construct, what would the module 
look like?
Where would the be located? How about the ? Might it be 
something like:
<title type="x-preverse>Chapter Heading</title>v1
v2
...
vm
vn
...
vxavxb
...
vz

(One of the problems with synthetically adding type="x-preverse" is that 
it may overwrite a currently existing attribute's value.)

Chris Little wrote:
> I think perhaps we are confusing presentation and semantic markup. 
> Pilcrows are just presentation forms of paragraphs. If "<p>...</p>" 
> means, for you, that whitespace and/or indentation will result, you're 
> thinking about presentation.
>
> The fact is, for the purpose of encoding, I absolutely don't care what 
> the presentation will eventually be. What I care about is marking 
> paragraphs. In my world, paragraphs are real things. They have real 
> starts and real ends. And in OSIS, you encode them with container 
> elements: <p>...</p>, which don't specify eventual presentation at 
> all. You can't encode them with milestones because there is no such 
> thing as a paragraph without a start or a paragraph without an end.
>
> My statement stands (and is correct) that every chapter of every book 
> of the KJV and NASB begins a new paragraph. The statement you quote 
> really does nothing but confirm that a new paragraph begins before 
> Matt 9.2. That is, it does not deny another paragraph containing only 
> Matt 9.1. I'll give you another example with EXACTLY the same 
> structural configuration:
>
> <BN>MATTHEW
> CHAPTER 1
> <SH>The Genealogy of Jesus the Messiah
> {{40:1}}1 The <N1>record<MG976> of the genealogy<MG1078> of 
> <N2>Jesus<MG2424> <N3>the Messiah<MG5547>, <RA>the son<MG5207> of 
> David<MG1160b>, <RB>the son<MG5207> of Abraham<MG11>:
> <PM>{{40:1}}2 Abraham<MG11> <N1>was the father<MG1080> of 
> Isaac<MG2464>, <N2>Isaac<MG2464> the father<MG1080> of Jacob<MG2384>, 
> and Jacob<MG2384> the father<MG1080> of <N3>Judah<MG2455> and his 
> brothers<MG80>.
> {{40:1}}3 Judah<MG2455> was the father<MG1080> of Perez<MG5329> and 
> Zerah<MG2196> by Tamar<MG2283>, <RA>Perez<MG5329> was the 
> father<MG1080> of Hezron<MG2074>, and Hezron<MG2074> the 
> father<MG1080> of <N1>Ram<MG689>.
>
> In both instances, you get a chapter start followed by a section 
> heading followed by one verse. Then you get a paragraph division 
> followed by the second and consecutive verses. You can't possibly 
> claim that verse 1 is anything other than the complete contents of the 
> chapter's first paragraph. Likewise, the section heading is very 
> significant. These always signal a new section (new <div>) and a new 
> paragraph inside that. How do we know this? Well, without exception, 
> every <SH> mark in the NASB is followed either by a verse with a <PM> 
> or by verse 1 of a chapter.
>
> There are basically two options:
> 1) The markup of the NASB is completely specified, and therefore every 
> chapter starts a new paragraph.
> 2) The markup of the NASB is vague and there is never any way to know 
> the extent of paragraphs.
>
> In any event, we also know that every chapter of the KJV started a new 
> chapter because the typesetters took the translators' instructions and 
> put a section heading & dropcap at the beginning of each chapter to 
> indicate this.
>
> --Chris
>
>
> Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
>> My apologies for the bad timestamp on the previous send of this 
>> message.  Fixed time and resending to help the flow.  And a good 
>> opportunity to add one comment:
>>
>> Chris, I understand that you would not say "bag what the translators 
>> wanted, just put a <p> marker at the top of each chapter."  It seems 
>> we both think the translators (I do not hold the same regard for the 
>> typesetters) meant something very specific, were not idiots, and we 
>> should preserve their intent.
>>
>> We are of the same spirit.
>>
>>     -Troy.
>>
>>
>>
>> Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
>>>
>>>> In both the KJV and its genetic descendant, the NASB, every single 
>>>> chapter, without exception, begins a new paragraph.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <quote who="me" recipient="Pike Lambeth; VP Ops; Lockman Foundation" 
>>> date="October 14, 2003 5:23 PM">
>>> ...
>>> Version 2.0 of the OSIS (Open Scripture Information Standard) spec 
>>> should be available any day, and I have been fighting for a few new 
>>> mechanisms so that I might be able to completely encode your NASB 
>>> data in the OSIS specification.
>>>
>>> I have a few questions where your comments might help me succeed in 
>>> getting these tags added:
>>>
>>> 1) To quote your data from Matthew 8:34-9:2
>>>
>>> {{40:8}}34 And behold<MG2400>, the whole<MG3956> city<MG4172> 
>>> came<MG1831> out to meet<MG5222> Jesus<MG2424>; and when they 
>>> saw<MG3708> Him, <RA>they implored<MG3870> Him to leave<MG3327> 
>>> their region<MG3725>.
>>> CHAPTER 9
>>> <SH>A Paralytic Healed
>>> {{40:9}}1 Getting<MG1684> into a boat<MG4143>, Jesus crossed<MG1276> 
>>> over<MG1276> {the sea} and came<MG2064> to <RA>His own<MG2398> 
>>> city<MG4172>.
>>> <PM>{{40:9}}2 <RA>And they brought<MG4374> to Him a 
>>> <RB>paralytic<MG3885> lying<MG906> on a bed<MG2825b>. Seeing<MG3708> 
>>> their faith<MG4102>, Jesus<MG2424> said<MG3004> to the 
>>> paralytic<MG3885>, <RS>``<RC>Take<MG2293> courage<MG2293>, 
>>> <N1>son<MG5043>; <RD>your sins<MG266> are forgiven<MG863>."<RT>
>>>
>>> There is a <PM> (paragraph break mark) after verse 1 in chapter 9. I 
>>> would guess that this means that your editors disagreed with Jerome 
>>> and think the paragraph ending Chapter 8 continues into the first 
>>> verse of Chapter 9, which seems to me to be a fine conclusion. Can 
>>> you confirm that 9:1 belongs with the paragraph at the end of 8? (or 
>>> any similar case where the NASB does not feel that a new paragraph 
>>> begins at each chapter mark).
>>> ...
>>> </quote>
>>>
>>>
>>> <quote who="Pike Lambeth; VP Ops; Lockman Foundation" recipient="me" 
>>> date="October 17, 2003 4:22 PM">
>>> ...
>>> 1. Yes, our translators thought the new paragraph should be at verse 
>>> 2.  I know there are more situations like this but I do not have a 
>>> list.
>>> ...
>>> </quote>
>>>
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