[sword-devel] KJV2006 progress report

Chris Little chrislit at crosswire.org
Thu Mar 9 00:21:23 MST 2006

I think perhaps we are confusing presentation and semantic markup. 
Pilcrows are just presentation forms of paragraphs. If "<p>...</p>" 
means, for you, that whitespace and/or indentation will result, you're 
thinking about presentation.

The fact is, for the purpose of encoding, I absolutely don't care what 
the presentation will eventually be. What I care about is marking 
paragraphs. In my world, paragraphs are real things. They have real 
starts and real ends. And in OSIS, you encode them with container 
elements: <p>...</p>, which don't specify eventual presentation at all. 
You can't encode them with milestones because there is no such thing as 
a paragraph without a start or a paragraph without an end.

My statement stands (and is correct) that every chapter of every book of 
the KJV and NASB begins a new paragraph. The statement you quote really 
does nothing but confirm that a new paragraph begins before Matt 9.2. 
That is, it does not deny another paragraph containing only Matt 9.1. 
I'll give you another example with EXACTLY the same structural 

<SH>The Genealogy of Jesus the Messiah
{{40:1}}1 The <N1>record<MG976> of the genealogy<MG1078> of 
<N2>Jesus<MG2424> <N3>the Messiah<MG5547>, <RA>the son<MG5207> of 
David<MG1160b>, <RB>the son<MG5207> of Abraham<MG11>:
<PM>{{40:1}}2 Abraham<MG11> <N1>was the father<MG1080> of Isaac<MG2464>, 
<N2>Isaac<MG2464> the father<MG1080> of Jacob<MG2384>, and Jacob<MG2384> 
the father<MG1080> of <N3>Judah<MG2455> and his brothers<MG80>.
{{40:1}}3 Judah<MG2455> was the father<MG1080> of Perez<MG5329> and 
Zerah<MG2196> by Tamar<MG2283>, <RA>Perez<MG5329> was the father<MG1080> 
of Hezron<MG2074>, and Hezron<MG2074> the father<MG1080> of <N1>Ram<MG689>.

In both instances, you get a chapter start followed by a section heading 
followed by one verse. Then you get a paragraph division followed by the 
second and consecutive verses. You can't possibly claim that verse 1 is 
anything other than the complete contents of the chapter's first 
paragraph. Likewise, the section heading is very significant. These 
always signal a new section (new <div>) and a new paragraph inside that. 
How do we know this? Well, without exception, every <SH> mark in the 
NASB is followed either by a verse with a <PM> or by verse 1 of a chapter.

There are basically two options:
1) The markup of the NASB is completely specified, and therefore every 
chapter starts a new paragraph.
2) The markup of the NASB is vague and there is never any way to know 
the extent of paragraphs.

In any event, we also know that every chapter of the KJV started a new 
chapter because the typesetters took the translators' instructions and 
put a section heading & dropcap at the beginning of each chapter to 
indicate this.


Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
> My apologies for the bad timestamp on the previous send of this message. 
>  Fixed time and resending to help the flow.  And a good opportunity to 
> add one comment:
> Chris, I understand that you would not say "bag what the translators 
> wanted, just put a <p> marker at the top of each chapter."  It seems we 
> both think the translators (I do not hold the same regard for the 
> typesetters) meant something very specific, were not idiots, and we 
> should preserve their intent.
> We are of the same spirit.
>     -Troy.
> Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
>>> In both the KJV and its genetic descendant, the NASB, every single 
>>> chapter, without exception, begins a new paragraph.
>> <quote who="me" recipient="Pike Lambeth; VP Ops; Lockman Foundation" 
>> date="October 14, 2003 5:23 PM">
>> ...
>> Version 2.0 of the OSIS (Open Scripture Information Standard) spec 
>> should be available any day, and I have been fighting for a few new 
>> mechanisms so that I might be able to completely encode your NASB data 
>> in the OSIS specification.
>> I have a few questions where your comments might help me succeed in 
>> getting these tags added:
>> 1) To quote your data from Matthew 8:34-9:2
>> {{40:8}}34 And behold<MG2400>, the whole<MG3956> city<MG4172> 
>> came<MG1831> out to meet<MG5222> Jesus<MG2424>; and when they 
>> saw<MG3708> Him, <RA>they implored<MG3870> Him to leave<MG3327> their 
>> region<MG3725>.
>> <SH>A Paralytic Healed
>> {{40:9}}1 Getting<MG1684> into a boat<MG4143>, Jesus crossed<MG1276> 
>> over<MG1276> {the sea} and came<MG2064> to <RA>His own<MG2398> 
>> city<MG4172>.
>> <PM>{{40:9}}2 <RA>And they brought<MG4374> to Him a 
>> <RB>paralytic<MG3885> lying<MG906> on a bed<MG2825b>. Seeing<MG3708> 
>> their faith<MG4102>, Jesus<MG2424> said<MG3004> to the 
>> paralytic<MG3885>, <RS>``<RC>Take<MG2293> courage<MG2293>, 
>> <N1>son<MG5043>; <RD>your sins<MG266> are forgiven<MG863>."<RT>
>> There is a <PM> (paragraph break mark) after verse 1 in chapter 9. I 
>> would guess that this means that your editors disagreed with Jerome 
>> and think the paragraph ending Chapter 8 continues into the first 
>> verse of Chapter 9, which seems to me to be a fine conclusion. Can you 
>> confirm that 9:1 belongs with the paragraph at the end of 8? (or any 
>> similar case where the NASB does not feel that a new paragraph begins 
>> at each chapter mark).
>> ...
>> </quote>
>> <quote who="Pike Lambeth; VP Ops; Lockman Foundation" recipient="me" 
>> date="October 17, 2003 4:22 PM">
>> ...
>> 1. Yes, our translators thought the new paragraph should be at verse 
>> 2.  I know there are more situations like this but I do not have a list.
>> ...
>> </quote>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org
>> http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
>> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
> _______________________________________________
> sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org
> http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page

More information about the sword-devel mailing list