[sword-devel] KJV2006 progress report

Thu Mar 9 14:42:31 MST 2006

Hey Chris, I'm speaking entirely of linguistic declaration of paragraph 
boundaries, not presentation.

I reassert that Mr. Lambeth does confirm my statement that Mat 9:1 is 
meant to be part of the paragraph ending chapter 8.  You cannot do 
otherwise without entirely ignoring my question to him-- or assert that 
Mr. Lambeth entirely ignored my question to him.

To requote:

 >>> There is a <PM> (paragraph break mark) after verse 1 in chapter 9. I
 >>> would guess that this means that your editors disagreed with Jerome
 >>> and think the paragraph ending Chapter 8 continues into the first
 >>> verse of Chapter 9, which seems to me to be a fine conclusion. Can
 >>> you confirm that 9:1 belongs with the paragraph at the end of 8? (or
 >>> any similar case where the NASB does not feel that a new paragraph
 >>> begins at each chapter mark).

His positive response to my request for confirmation clearly and 
explicitely indicates his agreement that not all chapters begin a 
linquistic paragraph.

I agree that the concept of a paragraph requires a begin and end.  I 
used milestones only because I can only confirm a paragraph _break_ (an 
end followed by a beginning).  I cannot assert that every chapter begins 
a linquistic paragraph, due to Mr. Lambeth's confirmation of such.  Thus 
their markup is ambiguous in this matter and I can only point it out to 
them and ask them to disambiguite their markup at some time in the 
future.  Until then, I cannot ignore his very specific confirmation to 
my presupposition that Chapter 9 does not begin a new paragraph.

	-Troy.

Chris Little wrote:
> I think perhaps we are confusing presentation and semantic markup. 
> Pilcrows are just presentation forms of paragraphs. If "<p>...</p>" 
> means, for you, that whitespace and/or indentation will result, you're 
> thinking about presentation.
> 
> The fact is, for the purpose of encoding, I absolutely don't care what 
> the presentation will eventually be. What I care about is marking 
> paragraphs. In my world, paragraphs are real things. They have real 
> starts and real ends. And in OSIS, you encode them with container 
> elements: <p>...</p>, which don't specify eventual presentation at all. 
> You can't encode them with milestones because there is no such thing as 
> a paragraph without a start or a paragraph without an end.
> 
> My statement stands (and is correct) that every chapter of every book of 
> the KJV and NASB begins a new paragraph. The statement you quote really 
> does nothing but confirm that a new paragraph begins before Matt 9.2. 
> That is, it does not deny another paragraph containing only Matt 9.1. 
> I'll give you another example with EXACTLY the same structural 
> configuration:
> 
> <BN>MATTHEW
> CHAPTER 1
> <SH>The Genealogy of Jesus the Messiah
> {{40:1}}1 The <N1>record<MG976> of the genealogy<MG1078> of 
> <N2>Jesus<MG2424> <N3>the Messiah<MG5547>, <RA>the son<MG5207> of 
> David<MG1160b>, <RB>the son<MG5207> of Abraham<MG11>:
> <PM>{{40:1}}2 Abraham<MG11> <N1>was the father<MG1080> of Isaac<MG2464>, 
> <N2>Isaac<MG2464> the father<MG1080> of Jacob<MG2384>, and Jacob<MG2384> 
> the father<MG1080> of <N3>Judah<MG2455> and his brothers<MG80>.
> {{40:1}}3 Judah<MG2455> was the father<MG1080> of Perez<MG5329> and 
> Zerah<MG2196> by Tamar<MG2283>, <RA>Perez<MG5329> was the father<MG1080> 
> of Hezron<MG2074>, and Hezron<MG2074> the father<MG1080> of <N1>Ram<MG689>.
> 
> In both instances, you get a chapter start followed by a section heading 
> followed by one verse. Then you get a paragraph division followed by the 
> second and consecutive verses. You can't possibly claim that verse 1 is 
> anything other than the complete contents of the chapter's first 
> paragraph. Likewise, the section heading is very significant. These 
> always signal a new section (new <div>) and a new paragraph inside that. 
> How do we know this? Well, without exception, every <SH> mark in the 
> NASB is followed either by a verse with a <PM> or by verse 1 of a chapter.
> 
> There are basically two options:
> 1) The markup of the NASB is completely specified, and therefore every 
> chapter starts a new paragraph.
> 2) The markup of the NASB is vague and there is never any way to know 
> the extent of paragraphs.
> 
> In any event, we also know that every chapter of the KJV started a new 
> chapter because the typesetters took the translators' instructions and 
> put a section heading & dropcap at the beginning of each chapter to 
> indicate this.
> 
> --Chris
> 
> 
> Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
> 
>> My apologies for the bad timestamp on the previous send of this 
>> message.  Fixed time and resending to help the flow.  And a good 
>> opportunity to add one comment:
>>
>> Chris, I understand that you would not say "bag what the translators 
>> wanted, just put a <p> marker at the top of each chapter."  It seems 
>> we both think the translators (I do not hold the same regard for the 
>> typesetters) meant something very specific, were not idiots, and we 
>> should preserve their intent.
>>
>> We are of the same spirit.
>>
>>     -Troy.
>>
>>
>>
>> Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> In both the KJV and its genetic descendant, the NASB, every single 
>>>> chapter, without exception, begins a new paragraph.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <quote who="me" recipient="Pike Lambeth; VP Ops; Lockman Foundation" 
>>> date="October 14, 2003 5:23 PM">
>>> ...
>>> Version 2.0 of the OSIS (Open Scripture Information Standard) spec 
>>> should be available any day, and I have been fighting for a few new 
>>> mechanisms so that I might be able to completely encode your NASB 
>>> data in the OSIS specification.
>>>
>>> I have a few questions where your comments might help me succeed in 
>>> getting these tags added:
>>>
>>> 1) To quote your data from Matthew 8:34-9:2
>>>
>>> {{40:8}}34 And behold<MG2400>, the whole<MG3956> city<MG4172> 
>>> came<MG1831> out to meet<MG5222> Jesus<MG2424>; and when they 
>>> saw<MG3708> Him, <RA>they implored<MG3870> Him to leave<MG3327> their 
>>> region<MG3725>.
>>> CHAPTER 9
>>> <SH>A Paralytic Healed
>>> {{40:9}}1 Getting<MG1684> into a boat<MG4143>, Jesus crossed<MG1276> 
>>> over<MG1276> {the sea} and came<MG2064> to <RA>His own<MG2398> 
>>> city<MG4172>.
>>> <PM>{{40:9}}2 <RA>And they brought<MG4374> to Him a 
>>> <RB>paralytic<MG3885> lying<MG906> on a bed<MG2825b>. Seeing<MG3708> 
>>> their faith<MG4102>, Jesus<MG2424> said<MG3004> to the 
>>> paralytic<MG3885>, <RS>``<RC>Take<MG2293> courage<MG2293>, 
>>> <N1>son<MG5043>; <RD>your sins<MG266> are forgiven<MG863>."<RT>
>>>
>>> There is a <PM> (paragraph break mark) after verse 1 in chapter 9. I 
>>> would guess that this means that your editors disagreed with Jerome 
>>> and think the paragraph ending Chapter 8 continues into the first 
>>> verse of Chapter 9, which seems to me to be a fine conclusion. Can 
>>> you confirm that 9:1 belongs with the paragraph at the end of 8? (or 
>>> any similar case where the NASB does not feel that a new paragraph 
>>> begins at each chapter mark).
>>> ...
>>> </quote>
>>>
>>>
>>> <quote who="Pike Lambeth; VP Ops; Lockman Foundation" recipient="me" 
>>> date="October 17, 2003 4:22 PM">
>>> ...
>>> 1. Yes, our translators thought the new paragraph should be at verse 
>>> 2.  I know there are more situations like this but I do not have a list.
>>> ...
>>> </quote>
>>>
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