[sword-devel] ISV status?

Andrew Thule thulester at gmail.com
Mon Jan 7 12:37:17 MST 2013

Greg, respectfully you're still missing the point.

Because a work is Copyright, doesn't grant Crosswire the right to inform me
of anything, since CrossWire is not the CopyRight owner.

It is only if the Copyright Owner grants Crosswire rights (and
restrictions) though the use of a license to use the Copyright work that
CrossWire has any legal obligations at all.

The ISV's copyright found here:

Doesn't say anything about Crosswire's right to control how I distribute
ISV text.   If I am bound by the ISV's agreement only than if I abide by
the terms of that agreement I can do anything the agreement allows me to
do, and Crosswire has no say in the matter.

However, because Crosswire is playing a role in the development of modules,
I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that Crosswire has 'license' to use the ISV
as Copyright work, which means I am not bound by what is at the ISV site,
but by the agreement Crosswire has with ISV.

If CrossWire has no such agreements, I woudln't be touching any Copyrighted
work for fear of the legal liabilities involved.

Either Crosswire has Lisenses covering each Copyright work it deals with,
or it does.  If it doesn't there are larger problems than me sharing a
module.  If its does, those terms must be passed on with the work (under
copyright law).


On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 2:02 PM, Greg Hellings <greg.hellings at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Andrew Thule <thulester at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Greg, its not clear you understand copyright law.
> >
> > Copyright Law is generic .. it applies generally.  If you read American,
> > Canadian, or European copyright law you won't find anything mentionion
> > CrossWire, ISV, ESV specifically.  That means it lays down principles.
> >
> > Therefore, copyright law with respect to either printed work or digital
> work
> > covers specifics in licenses.  If you read the licensing that comes with
> the
> > ESV  (found here http://www.esv.org/tools/licensing/  ) which is
> specific,
> > you'll see that nothing there says anything about CrossWire having the
> right
> > to distribute the ESV either, which means CrossWire's 'right' to
> distribute
> > the ESV (since the entire bible is being distributed)  is covered under
> its
> > own license.
> >
> > Thefore anyone using CrossWire's ESV module, or developing that module
> are
> > bound by a license that is apparently 'confidential'.
> >
> > Therefore if I have done as I've claimed, and distributed the ISV in
> > contravention of some law, you should be able to produce some document
> that
> > says I'm not permitted to do it.  Since the Copyright act doesn't
> > specifically speak about the ISV, you would presumably go to the ISV
> > foundation site.  Yes there is a document there (just like with the ESV),
> > except it says nothing about CrossWire's right to distribute, so that
> > license is not the one I've breached.   For Crosswire to assert its
> right to
> > distribute the ISV it must have a license that says this, and that is
> what
> > we're talking about.
> The text is Copyrighted. CrossWire informs you of this in the conf
> file. You are bound by whatever rights have been granted to you by the
> holder of the ISV's Copyright. In this case, the text on the page you
> reference is the ISV's generic rights that go out to anyone who
> legally holds a copy of the text. You legally hold a copy of the text.
> Therefore you are bound by that statement by the ISV's Copyright
> holder.
> The rights that CrossWire has negotiated separately have no bearing on
> your rights to use or distribute the text. Those rights apply to
> CrossWire. You have no need to see the agreements because they in no
> way have a bearing on you. You are neither CrossWire nor the publisher
> of the ISV nor any legal or law enforcement organization within whose
> jurisdiction any of the affected parties fall.
> That is how Copyright law works in the USA which is where CrossWire
> falls. If you can point to a jurisdiction where you reside that is
> affected by a law or requirement that Copyright agreements be made
> public then you might have grounds for your request. Until then, you
> are asking for private information which does not concern you.
> --Greg
> >
> > ~A
> > .
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 1:26 PM, Greg Hellings <greg.hellings at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Andrew Thule <thulester at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> > What I did have a hard time with was being publicly held accountable
> to
> >> > license restrictions reasonably unknown to me (and apparently secret),
> >> > while
> >> > having the issue made personal.  It isn't reasonable to assume I knew
> >> > sharing a compiled module with this group would set off a firestorm if
> >> > the
> >> > license between the ISV foundation and CrossWire is treated as
> >> > confidential
> >>
> >> You're not being held accountable to CrossWire's terms of
> >> distribution. You're being held accountable to Copyright law.
> >> Something you are reasonably expected to know. But which you have
> >> repeatedly shown yourself either unknowledgeable of - in the case of
> >> the Dead Sea Scroll modules discussion - or unwilling to abide by
> >> without some sort of extra treatment - in this case knowledge of a
> >> contract between two parties which has no bearing on you.
> >>
> >> Stop trying to insult the rest of our intelligences by taking the
> >> position of victim in this. You have shown flagrant disregard for
> >> Copyright and an unwilling attitude to learn or be instructed in it.
> >>
> >> --Greg
> >>
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