[sword-devel] DSS (Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls based upon DJD translations)

refdoc@gmx.net refdoc at gmx.net
Thu Nov 8 00:43:38 MST 2012

In the years I am on this list I have heard many crappy justifications for ripping off a text wholesale. Insofar yours here is not unique.

This is not about opinion, your lofty hopes on academic disregard for copyright or odd legal theories, but in the end it is about the reputation of our project. Either you show the permission you have obtained, or a link to the publisher's general terms or you stop distributing and talking about ripping off these translations.  

Sent from my HTC

----- Reply message -----
From: "Andrew Thule" <thulester at gmail.com>
To: "SWORD Developers&apos; Collaboration Forum" <sword-devel at crosswire.org>
Subject: [sword-devel] DSS (Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls based upon DJD translations)
Date: Thu, Nov 8, 2012 03:56
Peter, you are entitled to your opinion.

Clearly I have no commercial interest in offering this module to the list for QA.  Clearly the translators who have offered their work to DJD did so in an academic / research framework (making them available to the broader audience), and their translations are often reused and cited outside of DJD.  I am not passing off their work untransformed or as my own.

Philosophically, I find only those in publishing want to copyright everything because they have a direct financial interest in restricting ideas for financial compensation.  But intellectual property, especially in academia is NOT THE SAME AS copyright!  Those in academia understand the broader benefit of sharing intellectual property for the advancement of research to build off the work of others and to have others build off one's work.

I've freely made a derivative work based upon publicly available translations which have come from a body of academic work (translators credited).  I'm not deriving any academic or commercial benefit from this, and I do it to further (biblical) study. My conscience is clear despite innuendos of plagiarism.  So, you and I will simply have to agree to disagree ... 


On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 6:47 PM, Peter von Kaehne <refdoc at gmx.net> wrote:

Your two responses show that your understanding of the terms you use is poor and flawed in all crucial points.

While the translators, if asked nicely might well agree to us/you publishing a module, only someone insane takes on an academic publisher with a deliberate breach of copyright.

There is occasionally mileage in creating something prior to show off when coming round to discuss copyrights and permissions, but, as I said, this is only occasionally so.

I am not going to bore you or the list with definitions.


-------- Original-Nachricht --------

> Datum: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 17:21:13 -0500

> Von: Andrew Thule <thulester at gmail.com>

> An: "SWORD Developers\' Collaboration Forum" <sword-devel at crosswire.org>

> Betreff: Re: [sword-devel] DSS (Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls based upon DJD      translations)

> Forgive me.  I forgot to address your question about what constitutes

> 'academic'.


> Dead Sea Scroll translations to date, have been translated by academics,

> holding academic positions in academic institutions. The translations have

> been (and are being) done for academic purposes, published in academic

> publications, such as the one entitled 'Discoveries in the Judean Desert'

> (At least, I assume you don't see the production of DJD as a 'commercial

> venture').  Dead Sea Scroll 'research', is not a commercial venture (even

> if some of its spin-off efforts are).


> Even in the copyright case of Professor Elisha Qimron's, the

> Israelisupreme court rules that the

> scrolls must be kept available for non-commercial purposes.


> Therefore, when translations are made publicly available in publications

> such as 'Discoveries in the Judean Desert: ISBN13: 9780199566662, use of

> those translations for non-commercial purposes clearly falls under 'fair

> use' (as courts in both Canada and the US frequently assert)


> ~A


> On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 4:35 PM, Andrew Thule <thulester at gmail.com> wrote:


> > Peter, I assume you understand the difference between intellectual

> > property and copyright.  I also assume you understand the 'derivative

> work'

> > principles of 'fair use' and 'transformativeness'..

> >

> > Within science and academia, authors may cite other authors work without

> > permission as long as they provide credit (hence the whole business of

> > citations) else science and common bodies of knowledge would not

> progress

> > for the sake of humanity.  This is also why copyrighting 'science' or

> > 'academic results' is generally frowned upon.

> >

> > The Dead Sea scrolls are not themselves copyrightable.  Their

> > translations, being the product of largly publically funded academic

> work,

> > falls under the category of intellectual property.  As long as I cite

> who

> > did the original translation and transform the work significantly from

> its

> > originally published form (which I've done) I'm well within 'fair use'

> > however much you protest.  Moreover, when 'fair use' is for academic or

> > scientific purposes, rather than commercial purposes, the court err on

> the

> > side of free and open.

> >

> > Besides, you're not being any kind of spoil sport since you're entitled

> to

> > your opinion and I'm really nor seeking your permission to do anything.

> My

> > offer is open to the community.

> >

> > With the greatest respect.

> > ~A

> >

> >

> > On Wednesday, November 7, 2012, Peter von Kaehne wrote:

> >

> >> On 07/11/12 15:52, Andrew Thule wrote:

> >>

> >>> It is a derivative work from academic translations, but for now treat

> as

> >>> copyrighted, until I resolve the license issue.  With the exception of

> >>> Elisha Qimron's translations (by the Israeli Supreme Court no less),

> all

> >>> other DSS translations are treated as academic or scientific

> knowledge,

> >>> and so free for use, subject to citation.

> >>>

> >>

> >> I hate being a spoilsport (and I think I get form in that...), but I do

> >> not think this will cut it. What is "academic" in these circumstances?

> >> Unless the country the translations have been made somehow PDs all

> produce

> >> by publicly funded universities (unlikely, TBH) then these texts will

> be

> >> subject to the ordinary rules as usual - no publication unless

> permissions

> >> are obtained.

> >>

> >> Now, I think it would be great to gain permission, and academic sources

> >> are often very kind + generous with these, but please be careful not to

> >> assume.

> >>

> >> Peter

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

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