[sword-devel] How about the OT's standard versification at Sword ?

Pham, Khoi Khoi.Pham at shawgrp.com
Wed Apr 20 13:32:04 MST 2005

Verification scheme is not easy to switch as you think.  I have tried to
do that and finally I have to develop a completely new verification
scheme according to the Nova Vulgata numbering system to include the
Deuterocanical Books into my Bible program using the SWORD code.  I was
trying to make it work for both KJV and Vulgate, but I could not do it.
So I went ahead and make one program working exclusively with the
Catholic Bible.  If you want to try my Catholic Bible, you can download
it at:





Paul Pham


From: sword-devel-bounces at crosswire.org
[mailto:sword-devel-bounces at crosswire.org] On Behalf Of C. N. R.
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 3:01 PM
To: SWORD Developers' Collaboration Forum
Subject: Re: [sword-devel] How about the OT's standard versification at
Sword ?


Chris Little wrote, among other things:

> In any case, it really has nothing to do with language. 

> Remember, we're trying NOT to change or re-order the text like

> you were. So knowing or not knowing the language of the text

> is irrelevant.

But knowing or not knowing the language *is* relevant to users. Let us
suppose that a typical serious Bible student who knows a bit of Biblical
Greek and the mere basics of Hebrew is trying to discover the
differences between the text of the verse of a psalm in the Septuagint
and the Hebrew Bible.

With the present arrangement, all based on the KJV:

1. Identify your verse in your own language version, or in the KJV+
module with Strong's numbers.

2. Switch to the LXX module and read that verse.

3. Switch to the HOT module and read that verse.

Or, of course, you can also display the three versions side by side.
What could be easier?

With an arrangement where all versions have individual verse numbers:

1. Identify your verse in your own language version, or in the KJV+
module with Strong's numbers.

2. Switch to the LXX module and search for the equivalent verse, which
will likely require you to go to another psalm and maybe a differently
numbered verse.

3. Switch to the HOT module, which will require you to go back to the
original numbering system.

I don't think you will be able to display the three versions side by
side -- at any rate, not until a pretty sophisticated adjustment
mechanism is added to the SWORD engine; and this has not been written,
and if and when it is written, it will need a lot of debugging before it

> The KJV versification (v11n) system is the basis for

> Sword's internal v11n (at the moment, for all intents and 

> purposes). It's a known problem that some of us are

> working to correct.

Glad that this is clear. But is it actually a problem? From here it
looks more like an advantage.

> Furthermore, in my experience, individuals who have never encoded a

> document in XML do not do a very good job the first time. 

Agreed. Given a chance rather than the cold shoulder, they will get
better and become useful. But what sort of a job will people do who,
though ever so good at XML, don't understand a word of the text they are
looking at?

> You seem to think you have a right to decide 

> on the versification of a Bible that you didn't translate.

> We don't believe you do. We believe that decision was

> already made by its actual translators and that you have

> no right to impose your own opinions on their work.

The original translators of the Septuagint and Vulgate, and the
compilers of the Greek New Testament, didn't impose any system of
versification at all. One of the very few old MSS to have verse numbers,
the 6th century Codex Bezae (Gospels and Acts only), has different
numbering from any later text. Tyndale's, Coverdale's, Matthew's,
Taverner's, and the Great Bible, all of the 1530s, have no verse numbers
in their original editions, though in Coverdale's, the chapters are
broken up into blocks marked A, B, C ... Only when we get to the Geneva
Bible of 1560 and the Bishops' Bible of 1568 are verse numbers added.

> When we support other v11n systems in Sword, we

> will use that data to convert between systems rather

> than whatever ad hoc methods you might be imagining.

Yes, when. Probably not for a while. Meanwhile many people are using the
SWORD Bibles for comparing texts, and for them ad hoc solutions work
just fine.

Working for Him,

Catalin N. Ravaru





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