Modules
  1. Modules
  2. MOD-186

New module FrePGR should really have Alternate Versification

    Details

      Description

      For example, the Psalms in particular do not match the default KJV v11n.
      French Psalms allocate verset numero 1 to the canonical titles.
      As a consequence, the last verse is missing of those with such a title!
      This is because the module has been squeezed to fit into KJV v11n.

      This may even be a source text issue, since the text was prepared first for other Bible software that does not have support for av11n. Hence no V11N errors would have been reported by the Sword utility used to make the module.

      We lack a suitable v11n system for French translations. This is an issue for several French Bibles.

      For general background information, see
      http://bibliquest.org/Bibliquest/Bibliquest-Discordances_de_numerotation_des_versets.htm

        Activity

        Hide
        David Haslam added a comment -

        Until now, CrossWire has resisted making a versification system specifically for French Bibles.
        IMHO, we cannot hold out on this indefinitely.

        To illustrate, Psalm 58 ends at verse 11, yet Psalm 58:12 in the French Version Synodal reads,
        Et l'on dira: Oui, il y a une récompense pour le juste; Oui, il y a un Dieu qui fait justice sur la terre.

        Show
        David Haslam added a comment - Until now, CrossWire has resisted making a versification system specifically for French Bibles. IMHO, we cannot hold out on this indefinitely. To illustrate, Psalm 58 ends at verse 11, yet Psalm 58:12 in the French Version Synodal reads, Et l'on dira: Oui, il y a une récompense pour le juste; Oui, il y a un Dieu qui fait justice sur la terre.
        Hide
        Y. D. added a comment -

        Hi all,

        I discovered the SWORD project three years ago I think, but now want to improve existing modules (in French) and maybe add some (like a dictionnary)... so I am new, I just made my first module (commentary) FreCJE one month ago...

        First of all, the .conf file of the new FrePGR module is not well encoded (cf http://www.crosswire.org/sword/modules/ModInfo.jsp?modName=FrePGR).

        Then, French Bibles suffer from a versification problem !! I think it is more general, it deals with (at least) all french modules !

        Here are examples :

        • FreBBB :
          You can read in the About description "Afin de faciliter l'intégration aux logiciels bibliques, la numération des versets est celle de la King James", in English : To facilitate integration with software Bible, the versification is the KJV one.
        • FreSegond :
          I have no access to a Segond version (paper), but according to wikisource cf http://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/L%C3%A9vitique_5 for example in Lev 5, verses 20 to 26 exist but in the module, these verses are attached to chapter 6 ! (like http://topchretien.jesus.net/topbible/view/bible/&livre=00003&chapitre=6&version=00001#ref, and see (5:60
        • FreMartin :
          Go to Lev.5.19 and you will see a very long verse ! (because verses 20-26 do not exist in KJV version ?)
        • FreJND :
          Same problem, go to Lev.5.19 ...
          Although in the OSIS file, all is correct : verses 20 to 26 exist !!!
          So same problems in all these modules : the versification is wrong (compared to the paper version one) !

        I tried to identify all these odd verses in FreJND, so I collected all verses that exist in the OSIS file and compared it to what mod2osis returns and here are the differences :
        2850a2851,2857
        > Lev.5.20
        > Lev.5.21
        > Lev.5.22
        > Lev.5.23
        > Lev.5.24
        > Lev.5.25
        > Lev.5.26
        4101a4109
        > Num.13.34
        4657a4666
        > Num.30.17
        5672a5682
        > Deut.28.69
        7765a7776
        > 1Sam.20.43
        7853a7865
        > 1Sam.24.23
        9525a9538
        > 1Kgs.22.54
        13853a13867,13874
        > Job.39.31
        > Job.39.32
        > Job.39.33
        > Job.39.34
        > Job.39.35
        > Job.39.36
        > Job.39.37
        > Job.39.38
        13877a13899,13901
        > Job.40.25
        > Job.40.26
        > Job.40.27
        20950a20975,20979
        > Ezek.21.33
        > Ezek.21.34
        > Ezek.21.35
        > Ezek.21.36
        > Ezek.21.37
        22239a22269
        > Hos.12.15
        22530a22561
        > Jonah.2.11
        24559a24591
        > Mark.9.51
        26066a26099
        > John.1.52
        30642a30676
        > 3John.1.15
        30878a30913
        > Rev.12.18
        These verses have been remove in the SWORD module, and attached to the previous verse, what is not the way expected !!

        How can I specify to osis2mod that I use another versification ?
        Can osis2mod use a customizable and easy versification ?
        Should I follow http://www.crosswire.org/wiki/Alternate_Versification ?

        Important : I believe, French Bibles versifications are almost all different !!!

        Sorry for my bad English.

        Thanks for all you did/do

        Show
        Y. D. added a comment - Hi all, I discovered the SWORD project three years ago I think, but now want to improve existing modules (in French) and maybe add some (like a dictionnary)... so I am new, I just made my first module (commentary) FreCJE one month ago... First of all, the .conf file of the new FrePGR module is not well encoded (cf http://www.crosswire.org/sword/modules/ModInfo.jsp?modName=FrePGR ). Then, French Bibles suffer from a versification problem !! I think it is more general, it deals with (at least) all french modules ! Here are examples : FreBBB : You can read in the About description "Afin de faciliter l'intégration aux logiciels bibliques, la numération des versets est celle de la King James", in English : To facilitate integration with software Bible, the versification is the KJV one. FreSegond : I have no access to a Segond version (paper), but according to wikisource cf http://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/L%C3%A9vitique_5 for example in Lev 5, verses 20 to 26 exist but in the module, these verses are attached to chapter 6 ! (like http://topchretien.jesus.net/topbible/view/bible/&livre=00003&chapitre=6&version=00001#ref , and see (5:60 FreMartin : Go to Lev.5.19 and you will see a very long verse ! (because verses 20-26 do not exist in KJV version ?) FreJND : Same problem, go to Lev.5.19 ... Although in the OSIS file, all is correct : verses 20 to 26 exist !!! So same problems in all these modules : the versification is wrong (compared to the paper version one) ! I tried to identify all these odd verses in FreJND, so I collected all verses that exist in the OSIS file and compared it to what mod2osis returns and here are the differences : 2850a2851,2857 > Lev.5.20 > Lev.5.21 > Lev.5.22 > Lev.5.23 > Lev.5.24 > Lev.5.25 > Lev.5.26 4101a4109 > Num.13.34 4657a4666 > Num.30.17 5672a5682 > Deut.28.69 7765a7776 > 1Sam.20.43 7853a7865 > 1Sam.24.23 9525a9538 > 1Kgs.22.54 13853a13867,13874 > Job.39.31 > Job.39.32 > Job.39.33 > Job.39.34 > Job.39.35 > Job.39.36 > Job.39.37 > Job.39.38 13877a13899,13901 > Job.40.25 > Job.40.26 > Job.40.27 20950a20975,20979 > Ezek.21.33 > Ezek.21.34 > Ezek.21.35 > Ezek.21.36 > Ezek.21.37 22239a22269 > Hos.12.15 22530a22561 > Jonah.2.11 24559a24591 > Mark.9.51 26066a26099 > John.1.52 30642a30676 > 3John.1.15 30878a30913 > Rev.12.18 These verses have been remove in the SWORD module, and attached to the previous verse, what is not the way expected !! How can I specify to osis2mod that I use another versification ? Can osis2mod use a customizable and easy versification ? Should I follow http://www.crosswire.org/wiki/Alternate_Versification ? Important : I believe, French Bibles versifications are almost all different !!! Sorry for my bad English. Thanks for all you did/do
        Hide
        David Haslam added a comment -

        This is the nub of the problem: "French Bibles versifications are almost all different"

        To cope with this variety, SWORD would need to have multiple v11n's defined for making French Bible modules with our various module creation tools.

        e.g. French1, French2, French3, etc

        I can understand the reluctance of our developers to add this complexity by defining all these new v11n schemes, yet it's an issue that's not going to go away.

        David

        Show
        David Haslam added a comment - This is the nub of the problem: "French Bibles versifications are almost all different" To cope with this variety, SWORD would need to have multiple v11n's defined for making French Bible modules with our various module creation tools. e.g. French1, French2, French3, etc I can understand the reluctance of our developers to add this complexity by defining all these new v11n schemes, yet it's an issue that's not going to go away. David
        Hide
        David Haslam added a comment -

        FYI. Newcomers should become aware that mod2osis is deprecated. It should be used with extreme care.

        Any conclusions made by examining output of mod2osis should be double checked against the output of mod2imp, which is more reliable.

        Show
        David Haslam added a comment - FYI. Newcomers should become aware that mod2osis is deprecated. It should be used with extreme care. Any conclusions made by examining output of mod2osis should be double checked against the output of mod2imp, which is more reliable.
        Hide
        David Haslam added a comment -

        The default behavior of osis2mod when it encounters verse content after the last defined verse of a chapter for the specified v11n is to append the text to the last verse entry.

        This has been described in our wiki, so it ought to have been expected.

        NB. No marker is added before each appended verse!

        Show
        David Haslam added a comment - The default behavior of osis2mod when it encounters verse content after the last defined verse of a chapter for the specified v11n is to append the text to the last verse entry. This has been described in our wiki, so it ought to have been expected. NB. No marker is added before each appended verse!

          People

          • Assignee:
            Chris Little
            Reporter:
            David Haslam
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            Dates

            • Created:
              Updated: