[sword-devel] milestone element, osisRef attribute
Horst Sclemmer
schlemmerhorst1731 at gmail.com
Tue Sep 25 01:41:03 MST 2018
Hi all,
let me try shed a bit more light onto the underlying issue:
The original text (in Paratext) has these verses in Romans 16:25-27.
That's where the translators decided to have them. This is marked with
the annotateType "x-vsys-*source*"
The versification of the text is SynodalProt, so to fit the
versification, these verses need to be in Romans 14:24-26.
The 'milestone type="x-vsys-movedto"' construction is used to keep a
link between the the position where the verses needs to be to fit the
versification and where they have been in the original source (Paratext
and in the printed book).
The "osisID" marks the verse in the proper versification(e.g.
SynodalProt), whereas the "osisRef" marks the position in the original
source.
For that reason, osisID can't be used again.
The reason for the extra markup is to keep the information about the
location of the verse in the source text (usfm, Paratext) in the osis file.
IBT uses the OSIS files as basis for conversions to many other formats
(epub, GoBible, HTML...), so the goal is to have the OSIS file as
complete and extensive as possible.
For the conversion to the Sword module, this markup is stripped.
Many other translations have footnotes in places like this, explaining
that the verse is in a different location on other manuscripts.
Information in footnotes is aimed at the end user, whereas this markup
is for conversion purposes only and is not to be seen by the user.
Although it could be used by front ends in the future e.g. to show the
verses in their source location (e.g. show these verses in Romans
16:25-27 instead of Romans 14:24-26).
Here's the relevant snippet again:
<verse osisID="Rom.14.23 Rom.14.24 Rom.14.25 Rom.14.26" sID="Rom.14.23 Rom.14.24 Rom.14.25 Rom.14.26" type="x-vsys-fitted"/>
<milestone type="x-vsys-verse-start" annotateRef="Rom.14.23" annotateType="x-vsys-source"/>
Лекин бирәр йемәкликкә шәк кәлтүрүп туруп, йәнә шу йемәкликни йегән киши вижданиниң
әйиплишигә учрайду. Чүнки у киши өзи йегән йемәкликниң тоғра екәнлигигә ишәнч қилалмиди.
Тоғра екәнлигигә ишәнч йоқ һалда қилинған һәр қандақ иш гунадур.
</p> <milestone type="x-vsys-movedto" annotateRef="Rom.16.25" annotateType="x-vsys-source" osisRef="Rom.14.24"/>
<milestone type="x-vsys-movedto" annotateRef="Rom.16.26" annotateType="x-vsys-source" osisRef="Rom.14.25"/>
<milestone type="x-vsys-movedto"annotateRef="Rom.16.27" annotateType="x-vsys-source"osisRef="Rom.14.26"/>
<verse eID="Rom.14.23 Rom.14.24 Rom.14.25 Rom.14.26" type="x-vsys-fitted"/>
<milestone type="x-vsys-verse-end" annotateRef="Rom.14.23" annotateType="x-vsys-source"/>
Please let me know if that makes sense or if you have other ideas, how
to encode the information in a better way.
Kind regards
Horst
On 9/17/2018 7:31 PM, David Haslam wrote:
> Then append "!m" to the osisID value in each milestone.
>
> This would be somewhat similar to how we might use the fine grain
> extension to give an ID to a title.
>
> It's still evident that osisRef was simply incorrect.
>
> Regards,
>
> David
>
> Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 14:20, refdoc at gmx.net <refdoc at gmx.net
> <mailto:refdoc at gmx.net>> wrote:
>> You can not have two elements sharing the same id
>>
>> Sent from my mobile. Please forgive shortness, typos and weird
>> autocorrects.
>>
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Re: [sword-devel] milestone element, osisRef attribute
>> From: David Haslam
>> To: SWORD Developers' Collaboration Forum
>> CC:
>>
>>
>> Thanks Peter,
>>
>> I too pasted the passage into a new file and reformated it. The
>> screenshot is XML syntax highlighted.
>>
>> See
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/cfgzg0eyy48e422/Screenshot%202018-09-17%2013.58.57.png?dl=0
>>
>> I also changed the osisRef to osisID and moved this attribute to
>> become the first one in each of the three milestones.
>>
>> It becomes quite clear that the osisID value for each is within
>> the current passage, and thus merely marks the location of the
>> milestone.
>>
>> Aside: The first milestone is different to the other three.
>>
>> I think it was simply a mistake to have used osisRef.
>>
>> Using osisID makes proper sense and also becomes valid to the
>> schema.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> David
>>
>> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
>>
>> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
>> On Monday, 17 September 2018 13:14, Peter Von Kaehne wrote:
>>
>> > To have some clearer understanding of what is meant I have
>> reformatted the snippet. Maybe this helps others too.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Лекин бирәр йемәкликкә шәк кәлтүрүп туруп, йәнә шу йемәкликни
>> йегән киши вижданиниң
>> > әйиплишигә учрайду. Чүнки у киши өзи йегән йемәкликниң тоғра
>> екәнлигигә ишәнч қилалмиди.
>> > Тоғра екәнлигигә ишәнч йоқ һалда қилинған һәр қандақ иш гунадур.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I do think the underlying problem is best solved with a
>> footnote. At least this is what we do in other places.
>> >
>> > Peter
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Gesendet: Montag, 17. September 2018 um 12:32 Uhr
>> > Von: "DM Smith" dmsmith at crosswire.org
>> > An: "David Haslam" dfhdfh at protonmail.com, "SWORD Developers'
>> Collaboration Forum" sword-devel at crosswire.org
>> > Betreff: Re: [sword-devel] milestone element, osisRef attribute
>> >
>> > Semantics:
>> > osisID marks the address of the current item.
>> > osisRef points the address of a different item that the current
>> item references.
>> > I think that the osis manual gives a suggested mechanism for
>> two v11ns in the same document. My computer is in the shop and I
>> cannot check.
>> > — DM Smith
>> > From my phone. Brief. Weird autocorrections.
>> > On Sep 17, 2018, at 3:16 AM, David Haslam wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Thanks Horst for explaining.
>> >
>> > Why is osisRef used rather than osisID ?
>> >
>> > The latter would be valid to the schema.
>> >
>> > David
>> >
>> > Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 06:22, Horst Sclemmer wrote:Hi all,
>> >
>> > It's good to see this discussion going on.
>> > I try to briefly explain the need for having the osisRef in a
>> milestone.
>> > As many people are able to read Russian, most translations for
>> languages
>> > in the former Soviet Union use the SynadalProt versification.
>> So, people
>> > comparing their translation with Russian scriptures won't be
>> confused.
>> > On the other hand most of the (former Soviet Union) scriptures
>> don't
>> > follow the versification in every detail.
>> > A very common difference is the problem you see in the Uighur
>> Cyrillic
>> > with Romans 14 and 16.
>> > As Peter already mentioned, there is an anomalie with the last
>> three
>> > verses of Romans 14 and 16. Most western translations (KJV) follow
>> > manuscripts that have these verses in Romans 16:25-27, whereas
>> > SynodalProt has them in Romans 14:24-26.
>> > Romans 16:25-27 seems to be the better place to have them, so most
>> > Central Asian translations decided, not to follow the SynodalProt
>> > versification here.
>> >
>> > The milestone types "x-vsys-..." and annotateRef
>> > annotateTypes="x-vsys-..." are used to reference these moved
>> verses to
>> > the right verses.
>> > See
>> >
>> https://github.com/JohnAustinDev/osis-converters/blob/master/scripts/bible/osis2sourceVerseSystem.xsl[https://github.com/JohnAustinDev/osis-converters/blob/master/scripts/bible/osis2sourceVerseSystem.xsl]
>> > for all the details and possible types.
>> > These milestone and annotateRef types are already used in a lot
>> of OSIS
>> > files for scriptures in the IBT repository
>> >
>> (http://ibt.org.ru/ftpmirror/pub/[http://ibt.org.ru/ftpmirror/pub/]).
>>
>> >
>> > I can remove the parts that are currently not supported by the
>> OSIS schema.
>> > But as this is a general solution to deal with translations
>> that vary
>> > from their versification, I would suggest to take the effort to
>> adjust
>> > the OSIS schema and add the osisRef attribute to the milestone
>> element.
>> >
>> > Kind regards
>> >
>> > Horst
>> >
>> > On 9/13/2018 6:21 PM, David Haslam wrote:
>> >
>> > > In the OSIS 2.1 Users Manual, for the milestone element only
>> three attribute names are mentioned: type, n, marker
>> > > The osisRef attribute is currently defined only for the
>> following OSIS elements: catchWord, chapter, div, figure, note,
>> q, reference
>> > > If we wish to enhance the CrossWire updated OSIS schema, the
>> request should be added as a new subsection in this wiki page:
>> > >
>> https://wiki.crosswire.org/OSIS_211_CR[https://wiki.crosswire.org/OSIS_211_CR]
>> > > What does the Uighur translation team envisage as the
>> practical use of osisRef in the OSIS example given?
>> > > What would we expect SWORD to do with it?
>> > > Best regards,
>> > > David
>> > > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
>> > > ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
>> > > On Thursday, 13 September 2018 10:01, Peter von Kaehne wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Deal all,
>> > > > I am in the process of uploading an update to our cyrillic
>> Uygyur
>> > > > module.
>> > > > There are a few instances where the new text does not
>> validate due to
>> > > > use of osisRef in the milestone element. The author asserts
>> that
>> > > > osisRef should be possible inside the milestone element and
>> I can not
>> > > > see any reason indeed why it should not - other than "the
>> schema does
>> > > > not allow it". Below an example. The textual background is
>> a manuscript
>> > > > anomaly in Romans 14 and 16, where a couple of verses
>> appear commonly
>> > > > at the end of Romans 16, but in some manuscript in Romans 14.
>> > > > 30965 > > > sID="Rom.14.23 Rom.14.24 Rom.14.25 Rom.14.26"
>> type="x-vsys-
>> > > > fitted"/> > > > annotateType="x-vsys-source"/>Лекин бирәр
>> йемәкликкә шәк кәлтүрүп
>> > > > туруп, йәнә шу йемәкликни йегән киши вижданиниң әйиплишигә
>> учрайду.
>> > > > Чүнки у киши өзи йегән йемәкликниң тоғра екәнлигигә ишәнч
>> қилалмиди.
>> > > > Тоғра екәнлигигә ишәнч йоқ һалда қилинған һәр қандақ иш
>> > > > гунадур. > > > annotateType="x-vsys-source"
>> osisRef="Rom.14.24"/> > > > osisRef="Rom.14.25"/> > > >
>> annotateRef="Rom.16.27" annotateType="x-vsys-source"
>> > > > osisRef="Rom.14.26"/> > > > annotateRef="Rom.14.23"
>> annotateType="x-vsys-source"/>
>> > > > Any views? Should the schema be updated or should I reject
>> the module
>> > > > in its current form?
>> > > > Peter
>> > > > sword-devel mailing list:
>> sword-devel at crosswire.org[mailto:sword-devel at crosswire.org]
>> > > >
>> http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel[http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel]
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