[sword-devel] Parallel Display of Differing V11n Systems (was: Versifications and verse order)

Chris Burrell chris at burrell.me.uk
Wed Jul 10 14:25:02 MST 2013

I don't think an explicit superset is required. An implicit one yes. By
that I mean that if you allow a versification X to map to the known KJV
Versification with parts (say 'a' 'b', or 'firstSentence',
'secondSentence', etc. - i.e. arbitrary parts), then it means you can go
from X to Y via the KJV without losing resolution.

For the Psalms all I was intending to have is for example (taken example
from memory for Leningrad - so might be the wrong psalm).

Psalm.51.1=Psalm.51.0 at a
Psalm.51.2=Psalm.51.0 at b

Meaning Leningrad (left) maps to the KJV verses (right). The part suffixes
are only used if you are going from Leningrad through the KJV to say
Synodal. If the Synodal were to declare exactly the same breakdown as
above, also using the parts @a and @b it would mean you could end go from
Psalm.50.1 to Psalm.50.1 as opposed to Psalm.51.1=>Psalm.51.0=>Psalm.51.1-2

In the above, the superset of keys really is:
Psalm.51.0 at a, Psalm51.0 at b, and Psalm.51.1, Psalm.51.2, etc.

You could obviously chose more meaningful part names say:
Psalm.51.1=Psalm.51.0 at repentance-prayer
Psalm.51.2=Psalm.51.0 at bathsheba-intro

Or obviously, just keep track somewhere of what those parts really mean in

I think in terms of displays, there are really many options. Two things I'm
looking at:

* warning the user if for some reason we're displaying more verse ranges
than the original passage... In other words, if we've broken 1 range into
2, and therefore omitted displaying some verses (because they don't map to
the original passage), then we warn the user to say "it's not an error, and
you're not seeing everything on purpose). The alternative is to somehow
decide to show the missing verses - and then the complication is where do
you put the missing verse in the verse order.

* warning the user if you're displaying a verse more than once (nice to
tell the user, hey, because of versification issues, this verse shouldn't
be there twice, but we think it's beneficial to display twice because it
really does map to both source verses).

* Absent verses, I'm leaving blank at the moment.


On 10 July 2013 17:02, Костя Маслюк <kostyamaslyuk at gmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry, when i try to imagine your conception of 'superset', i found verses
> scattered all around the room after translation procedure. Have you any
> visual representation of what you would like to achieve in final, or would
> you make such a table by your self?
> Should verses content be always equivalent in parallel view?
> What a text should fill the gaps? This is most confusing to me, module
> simply does not contain corresponding content, haven't clue what it could
> be...
> If we start to translating ListKey superset and displaying its content, we
> can got long enough recursion, for example in Psalms, all the book will be
> displayed when user request verse in chapter #3.
> I have added rough draft of Parallel display with respect of av11n
> mappings in BibleTime Mini:
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/11a3dvdz0yu8xf3/boundle.zip
> 2013/7/4 Troy A. Griffitts <scribe at crosswire.org>
> Hi guys. The questions that need answers in this thread are logically
>> complex and are one of the reasons we haven't finalized any additions to
>> the core SWORD library to support this-- though I greatly appreciate the
>> contributions made by Костя.
>> Take, for example our standard 4 Bible web display preset for "OT
>> Scholar", at Daniel chapter 3, around veres 23:
>> http://crosswire.org/study/**parallelstudy.jsp?del=all&add=**
>> NASB&add=WLC&add=KJV&add=LXX&**key=Dan.3.23#cv<http://crosswire.org/study/parallelstudy.jsp?del=all&add=NASB&add=WLC&add=KJV&add=LXX&key=Dan.3.23#cv>
>> How should this look?
>> The problem, for the uninitiated, is that The Prayer of Azariah and the
>> Song of the Three Jews in the LXX is inserted between what we traditionally
>> think of as verses 23 and 24. This makes verse 24 in the KJV very different
>> content than what should be verse 24 in the LXX (our current LXX displayed
>> from the link above does not include Apocryphal content)-- verse 24 in the
>> LXX being the first part of the Apocryphal content, thus verse 91 in the
>> LXX picking back up where verse 24, in say the NASB (without the apocryphal
>> insertion), continues.
>> The web interface above always displays in windows of 1 chapter. Thus the
>> user has asked for Chapter 3 of Daniel, centered on verse 23.
>> There are a few questions to answer.
>> What if they had asked for verse 24?
>> What content do we show?
>> Use case: The user is a protestant pastor, has chosen NASB as his primary
>> Bible, and is interested in seeing the parallel verses to the NASB in the
>> other texts. He is not interested in seeing apocryphal insertions. He
>> primarily cares about the NASB and only glances at the content from the
>> other modules when interested in seeing the parallel.
>> This is how the web frontend, and all current SWORD based frontends
>> *should* currently work with no code changes, with the v11n translation
>> facilities currently designed in the engine. It uses the first module as
>> the "master" and iterated its key and pulls the equivalent verses from the
>> other modules. The current facility in the engine allows for:
>> lxx->setKey(nasb->getKey())
>> resulting in the LXX being positioned to the equivalent verse (e.g., v91
>> from nasb v24)-- if translation tables (for example from Костя) were in
>> place.
>> But this use case, while likely the most dominant, is not the most
>> scholarly. A scholar would likely wish to see a *superset* of all verses
>> from all displayed parallel Bibles, inserting gaps where they should go in
>> the other text which do not contain the verses.
>> Not too hard to imagine, but what is the programmer-friendly API
>> interface for this? Harder to imagine. You can't simply choose one of the
>> modules to iterate.
>> Possibly:
>> ListKey superset;
>> superset << kjv->getKey() << nasb->getKey() << lxx->getKey() <<
>> wlc->getKey();
>> then one could iterate the superset listkey.
>> This would leave the work of figuring out where the gaps should go up to
>> ListKey, or something in the translation system in VerseKey which backs
>> ListKey.
>> It's a complex problem, but we haven't even talked about the issue of
>> reordered content. Sometime Romans 16:25-27a (obviously excluding the
>> subscriptio) is located after Romans 14:23. This is an example of
>> reordering. It doesn't give problems from our "chapter window display"
>> because the reordering is across different chapters and you could still
>> pick your poison from the 2 choices above for display logic, but what about
>> display windows which allow more than a single chapter, like BibleDesktop?
>> Now the question arises. If you've chosen to build a superset, where do the
>> gaps go? You could reasonably add them to either place (after Romans 14:23
>> in the modules which don't include the doxology here or after Romans 16:24
>> for modules which don't include the doxology here). How do you decide? How
>> should the program decide?
>> Lot's of questions and input we all need to give and a working proof of
>> concept for at least a single frontend before we commit to something for
>> everyone to use in the engine.
>> Obviously not a 1.7.x issue, but feel free to continue to give input.
>> Troy
>> On 07/04/2013 03:26 PM, David Haslam wrote:
>>> And (for example) if you wish to query the whole of the JPS module using
>>> book
>>> names, it will not do to specify *Gen-Mal*.
>>> You'd need to remember that in the Tanakh, the last book is *II
>>> Chronicles*.
>>> --
>>> View this message in context: http://sword-dev.350566.n4.**
>>> nabble.com/Versifications-and-**verse-order-tp4652697p4652712.**html<http://sword-dev.350566.n4.nabble.com/Versifications-and-verse-order-tp4652697p4652712.html>
>>> Sent from the SWORD Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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