[sword-devel] DSS (Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls based upon DJD translations)

DM Smith dmsmith at crosswire.org
Thu Nov 8 11:10:30 MST 2012

Andrew's original request was for QA help. That's very reasonable. I have asked for such in the past and will do so in the future. Sometimes, it has been for modules that cannot be made public or are encrypted. This is something that we can handle.

We got sidetracked by the full public availability of the module and the issues concerning copyright. (Which are appropriate for us to discuss.)

If Andrew were to make it privately available to those that would help in his endeavor that's a different story. We might have the same concerns of provenance, but they'd be lessened and we could take them on individually.

In Him,

On Nov 8, 2012, at 12:43 PM, Greg Hellings <greg.hellings at gmail.com> wrote:

> Andrew,
> Clearly arguing with you isn't going to show you that you are wrong.
> Regardless why you are producing the modules - which you have the
> personal right to do, provided you possess legitimate original copies,
> by distributing them freely on the Internet you are no longer using
> them for either educational or personal use. You are now distributing
> them openly, and that is very questionable use and akin to what
> Napster and similar file sharing locations facilitated. Treading on
> that dangerous ground is your prerogative if you want to go there.
> What we, at CrossWire, are collectively requesting from you is that
> you not use our mailing lists, wikis, or similar channels to
> distribute your information about such questionably legal and ethical
> practices. As DM explained, we do strive at CrossWire to contact every
> potential Copyright holder of every work and we are extremely strict
> about that. Your nonchalance about this issue reflects poorly on the
> image CrossWire desires to portray.
> Many of us in the community have personal-use modules produced from a
> wide variety of sources just like you're doing with these DSS modules.
> Some of us even share them with our families or may tell others where
> we acquired the source material if they wish to procure the original
> sources legally. But we do not offer them to others openly on the
> Internet because that would not constitute Fair Use but rather an
> infringement of Copyright. And, at CrossWire, we are very strict about
> adhering to not only the letter of the Copyright law but also the
> intentions and desires of the rights holders outside of what the law
> says.
> If you're not going to follow the community's standards in this
> matter, please don't use the community to make your material available
> or to let others know about it.
> --Greg
> On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 10:26 AM, Andrew Thule <thulester at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Matěj I have no intention.. here's why:
>> The US definition of 'Fair Use':
>> http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107
>> § 107 . Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use
>> Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106a, the fair use of a
>> copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or
>> phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes
>> such as criticism, comment, news reporting, TEACHING (including multiple
>> copies for classroom use), SCHOLARSHIP, or RESEARCH, is NOT an infringement
>> of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any
>> particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include—
>> (1) the purpose and character of the use, including WHETHER SUCH USE IS OF A
>> Here's the Canadian definition of 'Fair Dealing'
>> http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-42/index.html
>> 29. Fair dealing for the purpose of research or private study does not
>> infringe copyright.
>> 29.1 Fair dealing for the purpose of criticism or review does not infringe
>> copyright if the following are mentioned:
>> (a) the source; and
>> (b) if given in the source, the name of the
>> (i) author, in the case of a work,
>> In both cases it's clear this isn't a case where permission is needed.
>> Moreover, with respect to 'Intellectual Property' both supreme courts in N.
>> America (Canada and US) uphold the so-called 'scholars' convention' where
>> once a text is published this implies consent on behalf of the author to
>> allow further use of the text, and thus permission does not need to be
>> obtained to use the text further, nor is there need to engage copyright.
>> When Geza Vermes wrote "The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English" as a book
>> (which was a commercial venture) he certainly didn't approach each scroll
>> translator (some of whom were already dead) and obtain consent, and the
>> translations that weren't his constituted the bulk of the book.
>> The expectation that I need to individually approach each separate
>> translators (separately) and obtain consent is unwarranted and unrealistic
>> and not necessary according to the body of Copyright law I'm familiar with.
>> If it's not this way in Europe, I can only express my gratitude I don't live
>> in Europe.
>> ~A
>> On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 1:14 AM, Matěj Cepl <mcepl at redhat.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 2012-11-07 at 22:56 -0500, Andrew Thule wrote:
>>>> Clearly I have no commercial interest in offering this module to the
>>>> list
>>>> for QA.  Clearly the translators who have offered their work to DJD did
>>>> so
>>>> in an academic / research framework (making them available to the
>>>> broader
>>>> audience), and their translations are often reused and cited outside of
>>>> DJD.  I am not passing off their work untransformed or as my own.
>>> Then you shall certainly has no problem to get their express consent
>>> with the publication of their work, right?
>>> Blessings,
>>> Matěj
>>> --
>>> http://www.ceplovi.cz/matej/, Jabber: mcepl<at>ceplovi.cz
>>> GPG Finger: 89EF 4BC6 288A BF43 1BAB  25C3 E09F EF25 D964 84AC
>>> See, when the GOVERNMENT spends money, it creates jobs; whereas
>>> when the money is left in the hands of TAXPAYERS, God only knows
>>> what they do with it. Bake it into pies, probably. Anything to
>>> avoid creating jobs.
>>>    -- Dave Barry
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