tags (one

tag inside other

tag), e.g. verse Mt 10:23. Not sure how it may influence markup by GUI frontends. I suppose this happens when in the www.byztxt.com source there are more that one pair of variants in one verse. If WHNU module was produced with Perl's regular expressions (these are also similar in Python), then I recommend to the module maintainer to take a look to "perlre" manpage about greedy vs non-greedy matching (he needs non-greedy one). -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 3 11:30:59 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 16:30:59 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: Message from Daniel Russell of "Mon, 02 Dec 2002 22:31:25 PST." <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> References: <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: > I would say that if you can take out the accents and vowel marks, you > ought also to be able to hide the word breaks. It would be great if > someday the scholar could have a small note on questionable passages > where multiple renderings are possible... and with the touch of a > button, the words could reorganize themselves across breaks or change > their vowels/accents. Why the heck not? if someone wants to do it, > that's great! 1. I never have heard about different word break variant in Hebrew Bible. The Original is with word breaks. Not sure whether it was intention of God that we would rearrange the given by Him word breaks, however one should try and check whether the resulting texts are meaningless and not false. 2. Accordingly the information I have the first Greek manuscripts are without breaks. It would so allow several variants of breaking in many verses. The problem here is that it is just a rather big hard work to find all (or even some) the variants... so detailed studying of it is of a far future from now. -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 3 12:41:22 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Will Thimbleby) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 12:41:22 +0000 Subject: [sword-devel] MacSword and book problems In-Reply-To: <200211301626.33860.joachim@ansorgs.de> Message-ID: <87199F44-06BC-11D7-835B-003065B2931A@york.ac.uk> Thanks that fixed my problem. Finally this has been the major thing thats been bothering me with MacSword for a long time. On a final note: the Luther module gives top as 2,9,2 (testament, book, verse) and bottom as 2,10,1. However it doesn't include Ephesians, can you assume a bottom verse of 1 does not include that book? Also why does it always start at 2? Thanks, Will On Saturday, November 30, 2002, at 03:35 pm, Joachim Ansorg wrote: > I found the problem, > > you have to call module->setSkipConsecutiveLinks(true) before you test > for the > books. Set it to the default value false after all tests. > So the code would look in C++ this way: > > module()->setSkipConsecutiveLinks(true); > sword::VerseKey top, bottom; > > *module() = sword::BOTTOM; > bottom = module()->KeyText(); > *module() = sword::TOP; > top = module()->KeyText(); > > for (int i = top.Testament(); i <= bottom.Testament(); ++i) { > for ( int j = top.Book(); j <= bottom.Book(); ++j) { > //get bookname here > } > } > module()->setSkipConsecutiveLinks(false); > > You have to write j <= bottom.Book() to get all books including the > last one > which is availabe :) > > I think the difference to the Luther commentary is that the default > behaviour > of commentaries is to jump over empty parts, but bibles need the > setConsecutiveLinks call get that behaviour. > > I hope it works for you, > Joachim > >> Joachim, >> >> I looked at BibleTime, and in the end I opted for my own similar >> method, that managed to get modules such as Luther to list only >> Galations. Using ObjC, but should be pretty clear. >> >> >> VerseKey top, bottom; >> books = [[NSMutableArray alloc] init]; >> >> *module = BOTTOM; >> bottom = module->KeyText(); >> *module = TOP; >> top = module->KeyText(); >> >> for (int i = top.Testament(); i <= bottom.Testament(); ++i) >> { >> for ( int j = top.Book(); j < bottom.Book(); ++j) >> { >> [books addObject:[NSString >> stringWithCString:top.books[i-1][j-1].name]]; >> } >> } >> >> >> However this does not work for some modules such as ISV and others as >> below. I tried the BT code but had no luck. >> >> Will >> >> On Friday, November 29, 2002, at 04:01 pm, Joachim Ansorg wrote: >>> Dear Will, >>> >>> in BibleTime we managed to check whether a module contains only a new >>> testament, only an old testament or both. >>> Is this what you wanted to check or wanted you to check every book is >>> it >>> exists? >>> If you wanted to do the first I think I can give you some hints. >>> >>> >>> Joachim >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I've been struggling for a while to get MacSword to show only the >>>> books >>>> in a module, and only have just realised, that it could (and >>>> probably >>>> is) the modules themselves. In MacSword, at least modules such as >>>> BHS >>>> and LXX think they have a NT, and modules such as ISV think it has >>>> an >>>> OT, Family thinks that it contains the whole NT, when it seems to >>>> stop >>>> after Titus. Is this a problem with my program or the modules? Any >>>> help >>>> would be appreciated. >>>> >>>> On another note a minor update to MacSword is available, ToolTips >>>> are >>>> now more refined and should function fully. Other numerous bugs are >>>> fixed as well, including proper Right to Left text rendering with >>>> verse >>>> numbers. >>>> >>>> http://www.heathmoor.plus.com/macsword/ >>>> >>>> Will >>> >>> -- >>> Joachim Ansorg >>> www.bibletime.de >>> www.ansorgs.de > > -- > Joachim Ansorg > www.bibletime.de > www.ansorgs.de > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 3 16:02:52 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Mike & Amy Swanson) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:02:52 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] New to the list and volunteer info Message-ID: Hi everyone! God bless your work! I am new to the mailing list. You all have done a stellar job with Sword from what I have seen. I just ordered a CD yesterday and I'm anxious to get it. :o) I would like to volunteer my writing skills (not technical, though - sorry! ) if at any point you would have need of them. A few years ago I started and edited a monthly four page newsletter at my job. I did that for about five years. I also wrote a couple press releases for them for the local newspaper. Nothing big, but hey, it's something! haha I also have written a lot of stories, songs, poems, etc. I enjoy writing and would love an opportunity to serve God with something as important as His word. I am now a home-schooling mom, so time would not be a problem. If I can help, just let me know. Thanks and God bless! Amy \ o / ************************* Jesus is coming SOON (Get Right or Be Left...) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 3 17:41:29 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Jerry Hastings) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 10:41:29 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: References: <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021203102433.00c54e90@mail.dancris.com> At 04:30 PM 12/3/2002 +0500, porton@narod.ru wrote: >2. Accordingly the information I have the first Greek manuscripts are without >breaks. It would so allow several variants of breaking in many verses. ... Requiring one to literally, "rightly divide the word of truth," as also metaphorically. Jerry From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 3 18:34:13 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Russell) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 10:34:13 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: References: <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3DECF925.3090509@u.washington.edu> > > >1. I never have heard about different word break variant in Hebrew Bible. The >Original is with word breaks. Not sure whether it was intention of God that we >would rearrange the given by Him word breaks, however one should try and check >whether the resulting texts are meaningless and not false. > > > The original was without word breaks as a matter of fact. Hebrew was written without word breaks generally, like all other forms of punctuation, excepting the occassional bold "font" for emphasis, particularly on pronouns. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 3 19:28:09 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Russell) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 11:28:09 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021203102433.00c54e90@mail.dancris.com> References: <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> <4.2.0.58.20021203102433.00c54e90@mail.dancris.com> Message-ID: <3DED05C9.2020709@u.washington.edu> I failed to mention that the Hebrews did in fact occassionally separate words with a point or stroke, like the Phonecians and Moabites (whose languages' alphabets were almost identical to old Hebrew). These points must not have been regularly used in the original text however, since the Septuagint often makes word-divisions different from those of the Masoretic text. Jewish tradition mentions several passages in which the separation of words was regarded as doubtful. As i understand it, the situation looks like this: original and old copies from the original / \ Masoretic Text Septuigant Most Old Testament translations come from the Masoretic Text since we have had those Masoretic Text as our best Hebrew texts the longest time, while New Testatment quotations of the Old Testament come from the Septuigant (which the New Testament writers used as their Bibles). There are quite a few disagreements. We can not be sure of how often word divisions were indicated in the original original text. The Masoretic Text refers to several "old" codices such as the Leningrad Codex (published as 'Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia' and the Aleppo Codex). Unfortunately, the oldest Manuscripts of the Masoretic Text date back only to around the year 900 A.D.. Most are from 1100 A.D. or later, and no complete Text is earlier than that 1100 A.D.. If you are thinking of these codices when you think that the original text had word divisions, you must remember that these are not original, but only about 1000 years old. We don't have the original text (except perhaps for a few small fragments which we are not even certain are THE original). Some of the earliest comprehensive Hebrew texts we even have the Dead Sea scrolls, and those were not written until around the 3rd century BC to 68 A.D. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 3 19:46:55 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 00:46:55 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 03 Dec 2002 10:41:29 MST." <4.2.0.58.20021203102433.00c54e90@mail.dancris.com> References: <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> <4.2.0.58.20021203102433.00c54e90@mail.dancris.com> Message-ID: > At 04:30 PM 12/3/2002 +0500, porton@narod.ru wrote: > >2. Accordingly the information I have the first Greek manuscripts are without > >breaks. It would so allow several variants of breaking in many verses. ... > > Requiring one to literally, "rightly divide the word of truth," as also > metaphorically. Junkle for junkle: "Don't divide truth; take it all as a whole"... I'm am interested in any example of anybody who would get a false sentence from Bible by substituting another vowels/accents as approptiate or redividing Greek words (namely proven to be false, with no know proof to be true is not enough). Well, wait me yet for reverse examples as now I'm yet busy with programming. -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 3 20:24:55 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Russell) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 12:24:55 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: References: <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> <4.2.0.58.20021203102433.00c54e90@mail.dancris.com> Message-ID: <3DED1317.4000109@u.washington.edu> > > >Junkle for junkle: "Don't divide truth; take it all as a whole"... > >I'm am interested in any example of anybody who would get a false sentence from Bible by substituting another vowels/accents as approptiate or redividing Greek words (namely proven to be false, with no know proof to be true is not enough). Well, wait me yet for reverse examples as now I'm yet busy with programming. > > What? From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 3 21:16:57 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 02:16:57 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: Message from Daniel Russell of "Tue, 03 Dec 2002 12:24:55 PST." <3DED1317.4000109@u.washington.edu> References: <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> <4.2.0.58.20021203102433.00c54e90@mail.dancris.com> <3DED1317.4000109@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: > >I'm am interested in any example of anybody who would get a false sentence from Bible by substituting another vowels/accents as approptiate or redividing Greek words (namely proven to be false, with no know proof to be true is not enough). Well, wait me yet for reverse examples as now I'm yet busy with programming. > > > > > What? I meant: Show me a contradiction in without-vowels/accents-Bible, I meant (in any two readings of any two verses). Aren't you a relative of Bertran Rassel, a logician and a famous atheist? Well, the time to stop the discussion, which I haven't intented to begin when the software (for both sides!) isn't yet ready!! -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 3 22:55:51 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:55:51 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: jude Message-ID: I have started Jude. Please check some verses and give some comments. Have I split too many tags, i.e. if Greek has "adjective substantive" and english "the adjective substantive" is it right to split "substantive" to "the ... substantive"? Or is it better to tag articles or preposition to the closest word? I have now split tags and combined the qualifiers with the words they really qualify. Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 4 00:14:11 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 02:14:11 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: Jude ready, what's next Message-ID: I completed Jude (joining to this list was too time-consuming :). Still waiting for comments though. I feel quite confident and can take something else. How about couple of first verses of Revelation? Or is it better to take one whole book? I won't take too much because I don't know my near future schelude. Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 4 02:34:30 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (David Overcash) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 18:34:30 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: Jude ready, what's next References: Message-ID: <000901c29b3d$c3f83850$5001a8c0@DAVE> I'd like to be the first to thank you for your work and willingness to help! -Dave Overcash > I completed Jude (joining to this list was too time-consuming :). > Still waiting for comments though. > > I feel quite confident and can take something else. How about couple of > first verses of Revelation? Or is it better to take one whole book? I > won't take too much because I don't know my near future schelude. > > Sincerely Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 4 02:48:15 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 19:48:15 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: Jude ready, what's next References: Message-ID: <3DED6CEF.4000000@crosswire.org> Eeli, Thank you! Just had a look at Jude. It seems that you may have missed a few of our emails on this list about tagging practices. This is my fault, as these comments should have been added to the Help|Guidelines dialog. Stuff looks good, except for a few minor things. Each word not in between {FI}word{Fi} tags should be tagged with a Greek tag. For example, in verse 1: 'the servant' should be tagged with DOULOS, even though there was no article present. The translator chose to translate with a definite article and we can only mark what they chose to do. 'of Jesus' should be marked with IHSOU because it is in the genitive. 'to them that are sanctified' should be marked with hHGIASMENOIS as it has a dative plural present etc. form. Do these make sense? And yes, I would have split the direct article as you are doing, though I'm not sure it makes much difference, e.g. the blue car, tagged: 'the car' (with split). and 'blue', right? Thanks again! Hope this helps. -Troy. Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > I completed Jude (joining to this list was too time-consuming :). > Still waiting for comments though. > > I feel quite confident and can take something else. How about couple of > first verses of Revelation? Or is it better to take one whole book? I > won't take too much because I don't know my near future schelude. > > Sincerely Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 4 07:52:23 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Russell) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 23:52:23 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: References: <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> <4.2.0.58.20021203102433.00c54e90@mail.dancris.com> <3DED1317.4000109@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3DEDB437.2010106@u.washington.edu> > > >I meant: Show me a contradiction in without-vowels/accents-Bible, I meant (in any two readings of any two verses). > >Aren't you a relative of Bertran Rassel, a logician and a famous atheist? > >Well, the time to stop the discussion, which I haven't intented to begin when the software (for both sides!) isn't yet ready!! > > I have no idea how you came to the erraneous conclusion that i am an anti-Bible person. I was simply pointing out that the original was without vowels or spaces, since those were features that were added to the Hebrew language later. There was a fellow who thus wrote a module to allow a student to turn off those features to see the text as it was originally written (approximately). My argument was that if someone wants to make such a module, that's wonderful. The more tools we have to study the scriptures, the better. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 4 10:16:26 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:16:26 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: Jude ready, what's next In-Reply-To: <3DED6CEF.4000000@crosswire.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Dec 2002, Troy A. Griffitts wrote: > For example, in verse 1: 'the servant' should be tagged with DOULOS, > even though there was no article present. The translator chose to > translate with a definite article and we can only mark what they chose > to do. > > 'of Jesus' should be marked with IHSOU because it is in the genitive. > > 'to them that are sanctified' should be marked with hHGIASMENOIS as it > has a dative plural present etc. form. > > Do these make sense? > Yes. I forgot to check the first verses after practicing. The rest should be better already. If someone still wants to check, don't look at the first ones until I correct them :) > And yes, I would have split the direct article as you are doing, though > I'm not sure it makes much difference, e.g. the blue car, tagged: 'the > car' (with split). and 'blue', right? > Yes, great. For the sake of consistency between different taggers this might be good to append to guidelines, after all this kind of syntax is very common. Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 4 10:41:36 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:41:36 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: some words translated with a preposition Message-ID: I noticed that in Heb 1:4 "kreittoon toon aggeloon" is tagged so that "kreittoon" is "better than" and "toon aggeloon" is "the angels". First I thought that it was a mistake. After all "than" is included only when the substantive is in genitive. but then I noticed I have a similar problem in Jude. In v. 24 "katenoopion" is "in the presence of" even in the dictionary. However, "of" belongs to it only in some circumstances and thus would belong to "glory". So, which one is better? I would add "of" to "glory". Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 4 11:01:37 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:01:37 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: so what's my next mission Message-ID: I corrected some bugs in Jude and am ready to take something else, as I said before. I have no favourites, you can choose freely some chapters (maybe four is maximum). I can also do double-checking for some other's work if that is better. I read some postings about that topic - is something planned already? Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 4 15:19:40 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Benjamin Norman) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 10:19:40 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: some words translated with a preposition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DEE1D0C.9020407@one.net> mea culpa, Having done a few chapters since this verse and having reviewed my Greek grammar book for exactly this question: 'than' should go with the genitive word, as was your first inclination :). I will change this, thanks for bringing that to my attention. I would be interested in any further issues in my proofing of Hebrews so if you want something more to do, why not second proof any green chapters on the status page? (hopefully you won't find much more in mine after chapter 2 but if you do so much the better, I can be humble about it O:) LIST READERS WANTING TO HELP WITH KJV2003: This goes for all you other lurkers out there not feeling able to take responsibility for a whole book or chapter. The Greek to English leaves a lot of room for discussion and I don't mind being peer reviewed :) especially if it means a better more useful tool for others, in fact I want it. I have second guessed myself much along the way (ie should non-declined words like the Hebrew words in Greek {like melchisedek} be tagged with English prepositions like 'of'... which later examples indicates yes, otherwise you get into strange situations) ... if you want to review and document the norms we all are using for use in the guidelines to help others while you are at it /even better/! I have a question for the list: in Heb 5:12 there is 'which {FI}be{Fi}' ... /what/ is _which_ supposed to be marked with? Nothing I tried to match it to with seemed right, and I left it unmarked until further inspiration. So far it has stumped Troy and myself (sorry Troy ;). humbly yours, Benjamin Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > I noticed that in Heb 1:4 "kreittoon toon aggeloon" is tagged so that > "kreittoon" is "better than" and "toon aggeloon" is "the angels". First > I thought that it was a mistake. After all "than" is included only when > the substantive is in genitive. but then I noticed I have a similar > problem in Jude. In v. 24 "katenoopion" is "in the presence of" even in > the dictionary. However, "of" belongs to it only in some circumstances > and thus would belong to "glory". > > So, which one is better? I would add "of" to "glory". > > Sincerely Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 4 18:19:48 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Mentler Gyula) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 19:19:48 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] Uilocalization problems Message-ID: <3DEE5554.27106.2A00637B@localhost> Hello I wrote an uilocale file to the hungarian language to the Sword. It works well but there are some points where the original english appears instead of the localized string. For example: All points in the Options menu except Preferences. The text before the printing, saying that it is beta function. On the search panel - Search type; Multi Word, Phrase, Regular Expression (the later three has syntax problem in the template file but it is easy to recognize and correct) Search for word in the right button pop up menu. I checked it with other locales and the problem still remains. There are several places where the room is not enough long for the hungarian text. For example: Preview on the print panel. (Megtekint�s in hungarian) Show devotionals on startup I suggest to make the width of the buttons dynamic or grow them. (There is a place - I forgot which - where the button is big enough but the text is cut.) Could somebody to review the code? Thanks Gyula From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 4 21:50:37 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Lamar Owen) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 16:50:37 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: some words translated with a preposition In-Reply-To: <3DEE1D0C.9020407@one.net> References: <3DEE1D0C.9020407@one.net> Message-ID: <200212041650.37359.lamar.owen@wgcr.org> On Wednesday 04 December 2002 10:19, Benjamin Norman wrote: > a lot of room for discussion and I don't mind being peer reviewed :) As the original KJV translation was done under a peer review situation, peer review of this would be more than appropriate. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 4 22:29:48 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 15:29:48 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: so what's my next mission References: Message-ID: <3DEE81DC.1080809@crosswire.org> Eeli, I've signed you up for Rev 1-3. Hope this is ok. -Troy. Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > I corrected some bugs in Jude and am ready to take something else, as I > said before. I have no favourites, you can choose freely some chapters > (maybe four is maximum). > > I can also do double-checking for some other's work if that is better. I > read some postings about that topic - is something planned already? > > Sincerely Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 4 22:39:54 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Christian Renz) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:39:54 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] Genbooks Galore! -- UPDATE In-Reply-To: <01C29940.D8847030.sword@bertles.com> References: <01C29940.D8847030.sword@bertles.com> Message-ID: <20021204223954.GB1593@web42.com> Hi Dan, sorry for the late reply! >I would like the text as you marked it up too. That way I can make >corrections as I use these new modules. Great idea! I used XML files from ccel.org; the exact URL is in the .conf-file. I cc'ed you on an e-mail to CCEL; I was thinking about submitting corrections as well and asked them about the best procedure. Greetings, Christian -- crenz@web42.com - http://www.web42.com/crenz/ - http://www.web42.com/ "The worst attitude of all would be the professional attitude which regards children in the lump as a sort of raw material which we have to handle." -- C.S. Lewis, On Three Ways of Writing for Children From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 4 23:04:57 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (John Gardner) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 15:04:57 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: <3DED05C9.2020709@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: I believe some entertain a certain fear that we just HAVE to have the absolute real thing. There are actually two fears that mix together sometimes: 1) We have to have the original or as close to it as possible or somehow we'll be greatly deceived. 2) We can't have man messing with it (i.e. translating it) The scriptures actually address these issues. 1) Christ himself (and the apostles) quoted the septuagint (as opposed to the original hebrew) as authoritative. 2) Everything WE do is mixed with ourselves, whether it is preaching, giving, singing, or praying. Yet it the scriptures teach us that for Christ's sake, they are accepted. Even when imperfect (and they always are) in themselves. 3) God has given us a teacher, his Spirit. 4) The scripture abundantly teach that those who seek for truth find it. Some of the godliest saints (e.g. John Bunyan, Peter, John) were not scholars, didn't know textual criticism and didn't sweat it. They loved God and preached in power using what they had (John Bunyan used the Geneva bible most likely as the KJV wasn't even around yet.) and in some cases what they didn't (some notable saints were illiterate). Usually if someone is too focused on the originality and accuracy of the text they have more of a problem with obedience than with the text (from personal experience with myself). > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Daniel Russell > Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 11:28 AM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: Re: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? > > > I failed to mention that the Hebrews did in fact occassionally separate > words with a point or stroke, like the Phonecians and Moabites (whose > languages' alphabets were almost identical to old Hebrew). These points > must not have been regularly used in the original text however, since > the Septuagint often makes word-divisions different from those of the > Masoretic text. Jewish tradition mentions several passages in which the > separation of words was regarded as doubtful. > > As i understand it, the situation looks like this: > > original and old copies from the original > / \ > Masoretic Text Septuigant > > Most Old Testament translations come from the Masoretic Text since we > have had those Masoretic Text as our best Hebrew texts the longest time, > while New Testatment quotations of the Old Testament come from the > Septuigant (which the New Testament writers used as their Bibles). There > are quite a few disagreements. We can not be sure of how often word > divisions were indicated in the original original text. The Masoretic > Text refers to several "old" codices such as the Leningrad Codex > (published as 'Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia' and the Aleppo Codex). > > Unfortunately, the oldest Manuscripts of the Masoretic Text date back > only to around the year 900 A.D.. Most are from 1100 A.D. or later, and > no complete Text is earlier than that 1100 A.D.. If you are thinking of > these codices when you think that the original text had word divisions, > you must remember that these are not original, but only about 1000 years > old. We don't have the original text (except perhaps for a few small > fragments which we are not even certain are THE original). Some of the > earliest comprehensive Hebrew texts we even have the Dead Sea scrolls, > and those were not written until around the 3rd century BC to 68 A.D. > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 4 23:07:20 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 01:07:20 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: "tina" in heb 5:12 In-Reply-To: <3DEE1D0C.9020407@one.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Benjamin Norman wrote: > genitive word, as was your first inclination :). I will change this, Sounds reasonable. I will add "of" to "glory". > I have a question for the list: in Heb 5:12 there is 'which {FI}be{Fi}' > ... /what/ is _which_ supposed to be marked with? Nothing I tried to > match it to with seemed right, and I left it unmarked until further > inspiration. So far it has stumped Troy and myself (sorry Troy ;). > So two blind need one who can lead them ;) UBS Greek New Testament tells that "tina/", accent on the second syllable, is not very certain. Byzantine text has "ti/na". BAGD says that "ti, ti/na" can be used "as a substitute for the relative" (meaning 1 b dzeta). So "tina" is not "that one" but "which". "One" means that "one teaches" and "one" is implied from context. Maybe it should be tagged with "teach". Let me fall into ditch if I am wrong. Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 00:06:06 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 05:06:06 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: Message from "John Gardner" of "Wed, 04 Dec 2002 15:04:57 PST." References: Message-ID: > The scriptures actually address these issues. > 1) Christ himself (and the apostles) quoted the septuagint (as opposed to > the original hebrew) as authoritative. Jesus Christ himself never quoted septuagint (except of probably rare cases when He spoke with Greeks). Apostles in The Authoritative Texts really quoted septugiant, but 1. They quoted only some fragments of septugiant, not all of it. 2. AFAIK (I haven't yet checked, if I mistaken correct me.) the quotes from septugiant in NT are not literal but sometimes somehow changed. This does not add authority to septugiant. 3. BIBLE NEVER MISTAKES, BUT Paul epistles utterly CONTRADICT (!!) to Apostol's Acts speaking in Bible about whether people who was with Paul heard voice but not seen light or vice verse. But that place when Paul speaks the preaching it is a quoted (by Luke) speaking, not a direct saying of Bible, Paul surely messed here. Bible never mistakes (as opposed to man's who participated in its writing such as Paul) and never contradicts to itself: The correct is version of the Paul's epistle (where Paul is mistakeless co-author with God, while in Acts the co-author is Luke and Paul isn't and Paul mistakes in preaching). So, you have no foundation to refer to sayings of apostles as authoritative, even reverse, we all mistaken. > 2) Everything WE do is mixed with ourselves, whether it is preaching, > giving, singing, or praying. Yet it the scriptures teach us that for > Christ's sake, they are accepted. Even when imperfect (and they always are) > in themselves. I don't know this teaching. I believe in ZERO errors of any kinds in Bible. -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 00:52:29 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Patrick Narkinsky) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 19:52:29 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thus spake "porton@narod.ru"> : >> The scriptures actually address these issues. >> 1) Christ himself (and the apostles) quoted the septuagint (as opposed to >> the original hebrew) as authoritative. > > Jesus Christ himself never quoted septuagint (except of probably rare cases > when He spoke with Greeks). > > Apostles in The Authoritative Texts really quoted septugiant, but > > 1. They quoted only some fragments of septugiant, not all of it. I find this argument a bit thin. One might equally well say that Jesus quoted parts of the Hebrew Bible, but not all of it, therefore we might get rid of passages we find uncomfortable. > 2. AFAIK (I haven't yet checked, if I mistaken correct me.) the quotes from > septugiant in NT are not literal but sometimes somehow changed. This does not > add authority to septugiant. Oddly enough, I read a couple of paragraphs just the other day on this subject. From Richard Hays, "Echoes of Scripture in the Letters of Paul", xi: "It would be misleading, however, to refer to this Scripture [i.e. the Scriptures Paul uses"] as the Hebrew Bible, because the original Hebrew language of the Biblical writings was not a concern of Paul. His citations characteristically follow the Septuagint (LXX), a Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible dating from the second or third century B.C.E., which was in common use in Hellenistic synagogues during Paul's lifetime. Rarely do Paul's quotations agree with the Masoretic Hebrew text (MT) against the LXX; even the few cases of apparent agreement with the Hebrew can be explained to "hebraizing revisions," a tendency well attested elsewhere by the Greek versions of Aquila, Symmachus, and Theodotion. (A technical discussion of the biblical text employed by Paul can found in the comprehensive study of Dietrich-Alex Koch, Die Schrift als Zeuge des Evangeliums: Untersuchungen zur Verwendung und zum Verstandnis der Schrift bei Paulus. [Roughly translated by PN: The scriptures as a witness to the gospel: investigation to the use and appreciation of Scripture in the writings of Paul.] It appears that Paul, whose missionary activity concentrated on predominantly Gentile congregations in Asia Minor and Greece, normally read and cited Scripture in Greek, which was the common language of the eastern empire in his time." (For what it's worth, Richard Hays is a highly reliable source of information on this subject. He is one of the foremost American Pauline scholars, and is incidentally, while probably not truly an Evangelical, doing a lot to validate traditional evangelical understandings in many areas.) > 3. BIBLE NEVER MISTAKES, BUT Paul epistles utterly CONTRADICT (!!) to > Apostol's Acts speaking in Bible about whether people who was with Paul heard > voice but not seen light or vice verse. But that place when Paul speaks the > preaching it is a quoted (by Luke) speaking, not a direct saying of Bible, > Paul surely messed here. Bible never mistakes (as opposed to man's who > participated in its writing such as Paul) and never contradicts to itself: The > correct is version of the Paul's epistle (where Paul is mistakeless co-author > with God, while in Acts the co-author is Luke and Paul isn't and Paul mistakes > in preaching). So, you have no foundation to refer to sayings of apostles as > authoritative, even reverse, we all mistaken. I think you will find that, if you regard the accounts in Galatians 1-2 and Acts 9-15 as accurate, but not necessarily comprehensive recordings of everything that was done and said, there is no significant conflict. In fact, I am very concerned that you seem to be playing a "pick and choose" game with Scripture. Scripture is reliable as a complete canon, and should be understood with an holistic hermeneutic. It is a grave mistake to play single proof-texts off against each other, since the truth of scripture is not to be found in a single text out of context, but in all of the texts taken together. (Sorry for the off-topic discussion, but I felt that the points vis a vis the Septuagint particularly needed discussion.) Patrick -- Patrick Narkinsky - Apprentice Pastor, Hope Community Church - 757-652-9540 "Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - Chesterton From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 04:36:45 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Leon Brooks) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:36:45 +0800 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200212051236.45168.leon@brooks.fdns.net> On Thursday 05 December 2002 07:04 am, John Gardner wrote: > 1) Christ himself (and the apostles) quoted the septuagint (as opposed to > the original hebrew) as authoritative. Did they? Are you sure that wasn't an adaptation of the kind that keeps now-extinct place-names current? Anyway, if we are seriously willing to learn, God's teaching will reach us one way or another. Cheers; Leon From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 05:00:23 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (David's Mailing List and Spam Receiver) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 00:00:23 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200212050000.23985.davidslists@gmx.net> On Wednesday 04 December 2002 06:04 pm, John Gardner wrote: > The scriptures actually address these issues. > 1) Christ himself (and the apostles) quoted the septuagint (as opposed to > the original hebrew) as authoritative. Jude quotes from the book of Enoch, should we add that to cannon as authoritative too? -- Davids Mailing List And Spam Receiver Keeping me (relatively) spam free since 2002 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 05:41:49 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Russell) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 21:41:49 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DEEE71D.50900@u.washington.edu> Let's not make this into a religious argument. This is a very weak basis for deciding what to allow or block in what should be a great study tool, for all parties involved. Only insecurity in the textual traditions would make one argue that it is wrong to ask for tools to study the exact original text to be included, (if they are programmed by someone willing already). Don't censor the scriptures. By this i mean, don't talk about "authority" or "obediance" or whether the Bible is perfect or not, or whatever. It is a completely irrelevant issue unless you want to make this into a paranoid religious group of developers instead of a secure group of Bible scholars who are level headed and friendly to scholasticism in general. Let's not criticize or seek to block a tool that allows the text to be viewed almost much more closely to how it originally appeared. Regardless of whether or not that tool is deemed necessary from a *religious* point of view, include it if nothing else than for the sake of scholastic authenticity. Remember: this is the scripture we are talking about: it was written that way. I think a simple rule for determining ANY decisions like this should be: if the scripture appeared that way originally, it should be included (if someone has programmed it). Otherwise the message is: the original text is not good enough. You may have whatever reasons for why you think the original text is not good enough, such as the fact that it does not have vowels. You may say there's no reason NOT to include vowels, but don't limit the tools based on such standpoints. You yourself may not use the tool, but others will, and the work has already been done. Frankly, i'd prefer to read the text without vowel points for another reason: i'm used to it and i think many native Hebrew speakers would prefer it as it causes less clutter in decoding the words in the brain since less symbols are picked up by the eyes. This particular reason for including the tool is purely a matter of preference, but it is backed up by the reasons given above, so it is worth it. There are cases where various renderings are possible in Hebrew when vowels are not assumed. This can occur in Hebrew in general, not just the Bible. In some cases the words that may thus be rendered are no longer in common usage, and other, related words with different vowel points are. Thus an incorrect (even if plausible) rendering may be possible. Another example is when the vowel points (added in the Middle Ages) are taken as being one gender, but the same spelling with different vowel points can be the other gender. This can change the entire effect of a sentence since grammatical deconstruction will be affected by such a change (since gender helps determine what words are connected grammatically -- what verbs take what objects and what adjectives and adverbs modify what nouns, etc). BEING ABLE to view the original unvoweled text is useful as it can help free the mind from the erraneous belief that the vowel points that are present are absolutely correct: that no other renderings are possible. Once again, the rule for determining what tools should go into the project should be a simple one, WITH NO basis on any religious bias or assumption: if the module is authentic and can help anyone study the scripture better, or improve in some way (even slightly, even if you personally don't see how) their studying it, then it should be included. The key here is the word "authentic". I'm not talking about including a book about Dyanetics or the Book of Mormon. I'm talking about the original unvoweled text. Someone wrote a module for it. By golly, don't waste his effort. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 06:11:26 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Leon Brooks) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:11:26 +0800 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: <3DEEE71D.50900@u.washington.edu> References: <3DEEE71D.50900@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <200212051411.26998.leon@brooks.fdns.net> On Thursday 05 December 2002 01:41 pm, Daniel Russell wrote: > Regardless of whether or not that tool is deemed necessary from a > *religious* point of view, include it if nothing else than for the sake > of scholastic authenticity. > You yourself may not use the tool, but others will, > and the work has already been done. I think these are the bottom lines. Just because a tool exists doesn't mean that you or I *must* use or endorse it. Have a look at some of the other stuff we've already packaged and tell me if you don't think the vowels dispute isn't majoring on minors compared to that. Cheers; Leon From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 06:34:42 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Russell) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 22:34:42 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: <200212051411.26998.leon@brooks.fdns.net> References: <3DEEE71D.50900@u.washington.edu> <200212051411.26998.leon@brooks.fdns.net> Message-ID: <3DEEF382.1020409@u.washington.edu> Leon Brooks wrote: >On Thursday 05 December 2002 01:41 pm, Daniel Russell wrote: > > >>Regardless of whether or not that tool is deemed necessary from a >>*religious* point of view, include it if nothing else than for the sake >>of scholastic authenticity. >> >> > > > >>You yourself may not use the tool, but others will, >>and the work has already been done. >> >> > >I think these are the bottom lines. Just because a tool exists doesn't mean >that you or I *must* use or endorse it. Have a look at some of the other >stuff we've already packaged and tell me if you don't think the vowels >dispute isn't majoring on minors compared to that. > >Cheers; Leon > > > If that is the attitude that is being adopted by this group, then i wholeheartedly disagree with it. I find it absurd that the group would fail to endorse the original unvoweled text, especially considering that that is how Jewish people actually read nearly all of their text today!, nevermind the fact that God Himself allowed the authors of the text, ---- wait, scratch that, this does not have to include God ---, but the BIBLE AUTHORS THEMSELVES actually wrote the text that way. If the project chooses to go the route of neglected something THAT fundamental, and calling it a majoring in the minors, then i think the project has a fundamental flaw in its goals and assumptions and this will likely lead to further censorings and omissions on the grounds that "we don't like it" or "we don't think it is necessary". This is fustrating because this project is, right now, the de facto Bible software project, which is too bad, because projects where leaders limit the features even when they are readily available never reach their full potential. I hope you will reconsider this position. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 07:14:50 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Martin Gruner) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 08:14:50 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: <3DEEF382.1020409@u.washington.edu> References: <200212051411.26998.leon@brooks.fdns.net> <3DEEF382.1020409@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <200212050814.50217.mg.pub@gmx.net> Why are you talking so much here not really knowing the Sword project at all? Just turn off the vowels in the option filter of your Sword based bible software and voil�: there is your unvoweled text. Same thing with greek accents. It is a pity that all the time people who never contributed a single thing to the Sword project want to be the ones who make the decisions. Martin > If that is the attitude that is being adopted by this group, then i > wholeheartedly disagree with it. I find it absurd that the group would > fail to endorse the original unvoweled text, especially considering that > that is how Jewish people actually read nearly all of their text today!, > nevermind the fact that God Himself allowed the authors of the text, > ---- wait, scratch that, this does not have to include God ---, but the > BIBLE AUTHORS THEMSELVES actually wrote the text that way. > > If the project chooses to go the route of neglected something THAT > fundamental, and calling it a majoring in the minors, then i think the > project has a fundamental flaw in its goals and assumptions and this > will likely lead to further censorings and omissions on the grounds that > "we don't like it" or "we don't think it is necessary". > > This is fustrating because this project is, right now, the de facto > Bible software project, which is too bad, because projects where leaders > limit the features even when they are readily available never reach > their full potential. > > I hope you will reconsider this position. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 14:59:11 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Patrick Narkinsky) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 09:59:11 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: <3DEEF382.1020409@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Thus spake "Daniel Russell"> : > If that is the attitude that is being adopted by this group, then i > wholeheartedly disagree with it. I find it absurd that the group would > fail to endorse the original unvoweled text, especially considering that > that is how Jewish people actually read nearly all of their text today!, > nevermind the fact that God Himself allowed the authors of the text, > ---- wait, scratch that, this does not have to include God ---, but the > BIBLE AUTHORS THEMSELVES actually wrote the text that way. What precise "endorsement" do you visualize? What I hear everyone saying is "let's go ahead and include it, but let's also include the other Hebrew texts for reference." Consider a parallel case: at least some on this group regard the King James version as the best available English Translation. I regard it as a very nice translation done in 1611, and think that we have many much better translations available, even out of copyright. (In particular, the RSV is IMNSHO an excellent translation, if a bit dated.) Does this mean I should run off in a huff because I don't like the KJV? No ... I just let them do their thing and I do my own. If you produce a module that doesn't have vowel points, I'm SURE you could put it on your own website, and I imagine that Crosswire would put it in the modules list. Even if it required a software mod to work, you could still do it, because sword is GPL. However, it seems like you want someone else to do the work for you. That's not how open source software works: you have to scratch your own itch. I don't "feel an itch" for an unvoweled Masoretic text, so I'm unlikely to volunteer to work on one. I do feel "an itch" for an aspirated Westcott-Hort with UBS4 variants (contrary to popular belief, Paleographers think that the earliest Greek texts WERE aspirated, just not accented), so I might well work on that one. I don't "feel an itch" for a Windows version of Sword, so I don't mess with it. I do feel an itch for a Mac OS X version, so I scratch it. I also don't feel an itch for a Mac OS 9 version of sword - so I do all my development in cocoa. If you don't know how, learn! That's what all the rest of us had to do. Patrick -- Patrick Narkinsky - Apprentice Pastor, Hope Community Church - 757-652-9540 "Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - Chesterton From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 16:32:04 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 18:32:04 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? Message-ID: In Rev 1:9 there is "kai adelfos hymoon" which is translated "who also am your brother". I think that "adelfos" is "who am brother", but then it should be split twice because of "also" and "your". How to solve this? Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 16:47:42 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 09:47:42 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? References: Message-ID: <3DEF832E.40903@crosswire.org> Eeli, Leave a note, we'll tag it manually. It's much easier to hit these few cases manually than modify the software to allow multiple splits. Thanks for asking. -Troy. Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > In Rev 1:9 there is "kai adelfos hymoon" which is translated "who also > am your brother". I think that "adelfos" is "who am brother", but then > it should be split twice because of "also" and "your". How to solve > this? > > Sincerely Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 16:57:02 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 09:57:02 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? References: Message-ID: <3DEF855E.5000502@crosswire.org> *** OK, Please end this thread. *** On a few concluding notes... As Martin mentioned in his _not so polite way_ :) We already have modules that allow you to toggle vowel points. Victor wants to do more than this. His module includes all strongs numbers of any word that can programmatically be derived by removing vowel points and ignoring context. Most people on this list feel that this is bad scholarly practice and also feel that it will confuse more intermediate readers than it will help. Currently, Victor is welcome to publish this work on his own. I don't even have a problem possibly linking to his sight with a disclaimer notice. But CrossWire doesn't currently have a 'We disagree with the scholarly approach, but here's the module anyway' category. If you'd like to continue the discussion further, please email privately. -Troy. Patrick Narkinsky wrote: > Thus spake "Daniel Russell"> : > > >>If that is the attitude that is being adopted by this group, then i >>wholeheartedly disagree with it. I find it absurd that the group would >>fail to endorse the original unvoweled text, especially considering that >>that is how Jewish people actually read nearly all of their text today!, >>nevermind the fact that God Himself allowed the authors of the text, >>---- wait, scratch that, this does not have to include God ---, but the >>BIBLE AUTHORS THEMSELVES actually wrote the text that way. > > > What precise "endorsement" do you visualize? What I hear everyone saying is > "let's go ahead and include it, but let's also include the other Hebrew > texts for reference." Consider a parallel case: at least some on this group > regard the King James version as the best available English Translation. I > regard it as a very nice translation done in 1611, and think that we have > many much better translations available, even out of copyright. (In > particular, the RSV is IMNSHO an excellent translation, if a bit dated.) > > Does this mean I should run off in a huff because I don't like the KJV? No > ... I just let them do their thing and I do my own. If you produce a module > that doesn't have vowel points, I'm SURE you could put it on your own > website, and I imagine that Crosswire would put it in the modules list. Even > if it required a software mod to work, you could still do it, because sword > is GPL. > > However, it seems like you want someone else to do the work for you. > > That's not how open source software works: you have to scratch your own > itch. I don't "feel an itch" for an unvoweled Masoretic text, so I'm > unlikely to volunteer to work on one. I do feel "an itch" for an aspirated > Westcott-Hort with UBS4 variants (contrary to popular belief, Paleographers > think that the earliest Greek texts WERE aspirated, just not accented), so I > might well work on that one. I don't "feel an itch" for a Windows version > of Sword, so I don't mess with it. I do feel an itch for a Mac OS X > version, so I scratch it. I also don't feel an itch for a Mac OS 9 version > of sword - so I do all my development in cocoa. If you don't know how, > learn! That's what all the rest of us had to do. > > Patrick > > -- > Patrick Narkinsky - Apprentice Pastor, Hope Community Church - 757-652-9540 > > "Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons > exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - Chesterton From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 17:16:57 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Leon Brooks) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 01:16:57 +0800 Subject: [sword-devel] making decisions (was: clean bible) In-Reply-To: <200212050814.50217.mg.pub@gmx.net> References: <3DEEF382.1020409@u.washington.edu> <200212050814.50217.mg.pub@gmx.net> Message-ID: <200212060116.57431.leon@brooks.fdns.net> On Thursday 05 December 2002 03:14 pm, Martin Gruner wrote: > It is a pity that all the time people who never contributed a single thing > to the Sword project want to be the ones who make the decisions. `Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, teach teachers. Those who can't even teach teachers, manage things.' (-: Cheers; Leon From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 17:15:46 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Mike Sangrey) Date: 05 Dec 2002 12:15:46 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1039108552.17877.94.camel@sojurn.lns.pa.us> On Thu, 2002-12-05 at 11:32, Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > In Rev 1:9 there is "kai adelfos hymoon" which is translated "who also > am your brother". I think that "adelfos" is "who am brother", but then > it should be split twice because of "also" and "your". How to solve > this? Isn't there an article before the KAI? If so, that article goes with `who' and I think, if the tagging allows for it, the `am' should be tagged as going with `who am'.. The KAI is `also'. The rest is straight forward. -- Mike Sangrey msangrey@BlueFeltHat.org Landisburg, Pa. "The first one last wins." "A net of highly cohesive details reveals the truth." From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 18:25:55 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Victor Porton) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 23:25:55 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] We can capitalize Greek! Message-ID: I have a great idea for Sword. We can scan a Greek dictionary for capitalized words and capitalize the same words (having the same strongs) in our Greek NT modules. So we will legally get capitalized Greek NTs for free as in commercial versions! We cannot send these back to byztxt.com as their policy is against capitalization by technical reasons related to Online Bible. But we can make our modules capitalized as it is just an algorithmic change not a creative work and not error-fixing and is even reversible. It is just like what we already done: added ThML formatting or like if one changed "word"->"word ". Rather probably I will do this work in near time as I already developed some programming technologies which can be used for this. -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 18:19:51 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 23:19:51 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? Message-ID: > Thus spake "Daniel Russell"> : > > unlikely to volunteer to work on one. I do feel "an itch" for an aspirated > Westcott-Hort with UBS4 variants (contrary to popular belief, Paleographers > think that the earliest Greek texts WERE aspirated, just not accented), so I Thank you for info Patrick, this is important. Was thin and thick aspirations different 2000 years ago? I guess that no as (in modern typography variant) one needs good enough eyes to differenciate these, do I guess rightly? OK, I for aspiration. Is it enough, Patrick, a "generalized aspiration" (with no difference between thin and thick)? What was position of subscript iota in the most ancient texts (none, subscript, or normal?) Well, seemingly I already asked it somewhere some months ago, but my memory... Well, accordingly to your info (devil worked much to make infos on such question from different sources different) was in the most ancient manuscripts proper names capitalized? P.S. See my other letter for a great idea for Sword project unrelated to this discussion. -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 19:06:55 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Patrick Narkinsky) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 14:06:55 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thus spake "porton@narod.ru"> : >> Thus spake "Daniel Russell"> : >> >> unlikely to volunteer to work on one. I do feel "an itch" for an aspirated >> Westcott-Hort with UBS4 variants (contrary to popular belief, Paleographers >> think that the earliest Greek texts WERE aspirated, just not accented), so I > > Thank you for info Patrick, this is important. Was thin and thick aspirations > different 2000 years ago? I guess that no as (in modern typography variant) > one needs good enough eyes to differenciate these, do I guess rightly? > > OK, I for aspiration. Is it enough, Patrick, a "generalized aspiration" (with > no difference between thin and thick)? Only "thick aspirants" (in English we usually call them rough breathing marks) were marked. Since the smooth breathings are soundless, they were not marked. If you take a close look at a picture of P52 (a fragment of John from ca. 125) you can actually see an aspiration, IIRC over the article. Pictures are available at various places on the net. At that time, they were using two dots (i.e. an umlaut) above the vowel. > What was position of subscript iota in the most ancient texts (none, > subscript, or normal?) Well, seemingly I already asked it somewhere some > months ago, but my memory... > > Well, accordingly to your info (devil worked much to make infos on such > question from different sources different) was in the most ancient manuscripts > proper names capitalized? There were no iota subscripts, and all letters were capitalized. I'm not aware of any first century exceptions to that, but I'm not a paleographer, so could be wrong. Patrick -- Patrick Narkinsky - Apprentice Pastor, Hope Community Church - 757-652-9540 "Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - Chesterton From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 06:38:09 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Russell) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 22:38:09 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DF045D1.5050808@u.washington.edu> Patrick Narkinsky wrote: >Does this mean I should run off in a huff because I don't like the KJV? No >... I just let them do their thing and I do my own. If you produce a module >that doesn't have vowel points, I'm SURE you could put it on your own >website, and I imagine that Crosswire would put it in the modules list. Even >if it required a software mod to work, you could still do it, because sword >is GPL. > >However, it seems like you want someone else to do the work for you. > >That's not how open source software works: you have to scratch your own >itch. I don't "feel an itch" for an unvoweled Masoretic text, so I'm >unlikely to volunteer to work on one. I do feel "an itch" for an aspirated >Westcott-Hort with UBS4 variants (contrary to popular belief, Paleographers >think that the earliest Greek texts WERE aspirated, just not accented), so I >might well work on that one. I don't "feel an itch" for a Windows version >of Sword, so I don't mess with it. I do feel an itch for a Mac OS X >version, so I scratch it. I also don't feel an itch for a Mac OS 9 version >of sword - so I do all my development in cocoa. If you don't know how, >learn! That's what all the rest of us had to do. > > You're right. But to clarify what i was saying: 1) This is a de facto project and is going to be where people get their tools from. Simply relegating tools to other sites is not satisfactory, except when those tools are way off-base (for example: not about the Bible!). 2) I am open minded here. The analogy of the KJV is a bad one, since i'm saying exactly the opposite: that we should include tools whenever we can, only shunning those that are not authentic or that stray too independent of the Scripture itself. The more (worthy) translations should be included as much as possible (not translations which obviously lie and corrupt the text --- for example, removing passages that condemn homosexuality, and publishing a "translation" for gays, is not acceptable, and such works should be excluded, as they are not authentic). 3) I just joined up with this group, and i have been studying to develop. I was simply urging against the attitude of unreasonable censorship. Because as i mentioned above, the project is THE project for Biblical study on the computer, excluding projects from the mainline is essentially censoring them and limiting the access users will have to them. As someone kindly pointed out, there should be a filter feature to turn off the vowels in Hebrew texts, although i was unaware of this (does this exist in BibleTime? i could not find it). I hope egos won't get in the way here, since this is not an issue of me or you or what we have done or do, or what not. This is merely an issue of what is best for the project, which theoretically is everyone's project, i hope. I hope greatly to contribute, and i have been looking at the interfaces and where they fall short. The first project i plan to work on is making a list of all the "little" problems that slow me down when using the interfaces. My greatest contribution will be to that realm. I used "E-sword" on Windows everyday for a couple of hours, and thus learned exactly what makes studying with computer tools efficient. There is a lot of work to be done in this area, i hope to contribute in improving and critiquing the interfaces for Sword. (Are these related btw?). I am currently studying Hebrew and will eventually contribute a lot more to that realm... and eventually to the Greek work too, but right now i am not up to snuff. Believe me, i wish i was, and i hope i will be within the next year or two, able to contribute a lot more to the Hebrew and Greek aspects. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 10:23:31 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Stephen Denne) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 23:23:31 +1300 Subject: [sword-devel] BHS beta posted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Did the previous version have footnotes? I can't remember. They don't look right for me - lots of copyright signs and xs. Proverbs 1:27 בְּבֹ֤א כְשַׁאֲוָה (×›Ö°×©×Ö¹×•×Ö¸Ö¨×”×€ ) פַּחְדְּכֶ֗ם ֖וְֽאֵידְכֶם Stephen. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Chris Little > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 2:03 PM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: [sword-devel] BHS beta posted > > > I posted a new version of the BHS to the beta area. Those of you > who have > a chance, please check it out because we would like to be able to include > this on the new CD. > > This text has been regenerated from the Beta encoded source files using a > better Beta->Unicode decoding algorithm and should also fix the truncated > verses that people were reporting in the last release. > > --Chris > > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 10:36:06 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:36:06 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 05 Dec 2002 14:06:55 EST." References: Message-ID: > Thus spake "porton@narod.ru"> : > > >> Thus spake "Daniel Russell"> : > > Only "thick aspirants" (in English we usually call them rough breathing > marks) were marked. Since the smooth breathings are soundless, they were not > marked. If you take a close look at a picture of P52 (a fragment of John > from ca. 125) you can actually see an aspiration, IIRC over the article. > Pictures are available at various places on the net. At that time, they were > using two dots (i.e. an umlaut) above the vowel. Oh, I searched the Net yesterday several hours and found nothing (particularly no pictures)... Which side should I throw the net to catch? I suppose we can found all thick aspirated strongs by computer searching in Thayer module these word whose English transcription is starting with "h". Yes? (One with printed aspirated Thayer lexicon should check that this method is correct; well I can try to check this by myself, but my printed NT Greek lexicon (to Russian) is not keyed to strongs to make the work somehow harder) Well, I'm not sure whether aspirants may appear/disappear when a word changes grammatical form (without changing strong); huh? (You have printed Greek NT and can check by choosing 80 or so random words of which 50% is without aspirants and 50% is with in the initial form.) So we seemingly can aspirate Sword's both Greek NTs and Greek lexicons! > > What was position of subscript iota in the most ancient texts (none, > > subscript, or normal?) Well, seemingly I already asked it somewhere some > > months ago, but my memory... > > There were no iota subscripts, and all letters were capitalized. I'm not > aware of any first century exceptions to that, but I'm not a paleographer, > so could be wrong. But I'm in doubt whether these iotas was non-subscript or absent. About all caps my ignorant conjecture is that these only these texts which was fastly copied not the apostle's originals. Well, was lowercase Greek letters already "invented" in 1st century? -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 13:55:46 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 15:55:46 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: new features for ModEdit Message-ID: I hacked some time with modedit. I can now select whole English words with one mouseclick. Words next to each other will became one selection. Clicking second time on a word will unselect it. Pressing insert key on keyboard will put the active tag around the selection. Only non-split tags are supported at the moment, some advice about how to use splits programmatically would be welcome. I have put two files in my home pages. They are: http://www.student.oulu.fi/~eekaikko/MainFrame.java http://www.student.oulu.fi/~eekaikko/Selection.java Selection is new and MainFrame is replacement for the old one. I haven't tested them much. The code is very ugly now (finnish println debugging etc.) but if you are interested I can refactor and document it. "javac org/crosswire/modedit/ModEdit.java" should compile the files when they are in the unjarred directory. These features do really double or triple my tagging speed. One tag takes only two or four mouse clicks and one key press. Dragging and careful aiming are not necessary. Try it and ask if you have any questions or comments. Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 15:02:38 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Martin Gruner) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 16:02:38 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: <3DF045D1.5050808@u.washington.edu> References: <3DF045D1.5050808@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <200212061602.38709.mg.pub@gmx.net> Daniel, > As someone kindly pointed out, there should be a filter feature to turn > off the vowels in Hebrew texts, although i was unaware of this (does > this exist in BibleTime? i could not find it). from version 1.2 on BibleTime has a button in each of the display windows. This button allows you to turn on/off several different filters that are applied to the text before rendering it, such as footnotes, strong's numbers, hebrew vowel points, greek accents and others. Martin From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 17:16:23 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Steve Lorimer) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 09:16:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sword-devel] Beginning help question In-Reply-To: <200212061602.38709.mg.pub@gmx.net> Message-ID: <20021206171623.43606.qmail@web41001.mail.yahoo.com> Hi! I'm new to the Sword project (although I've followed it for at least a year). I'm interested in keying in some commentaries. One in particular is not in computerized form to my knowledge. (I've checked CCEL and other sources.) What is the best way to go about computerizing it. I will target a sword mod primarily, but keep the plain text if anyone else wants it. I tried to download the vpl2mod, but it said the file was missing. (Problem in the redirect to ftp I guess.) Is vpl the best way? Any suggestions? I appreciate the work that all of you are doing! Keep it up, and may God bless you all and this project. In Christ, Steve Lorimer __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 18:00:00 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 11:00:00 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Beginning help question References: <20021206171623.43606.qmail@web41001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3DF0E5A0.9010005@crosswire.org> Steve, Thanks for your willingness to help and serve with us. The latest versions of the windows commandline tools are at: ftp://ftp.crosswire.org/pub/sword/utils/win32 I would suggest our 'imp' format, so imp2vs is probably what you'll want to use (if the commentary is keyed to Bible book ch:vs). The imp format looks something like this: $$$jn1:1 This is commentary on John 1:1 $$$jn1:2-5 This is commentary on John 1:2 - John 1:5 Blessings on your endeavours. We have a new wiki page setup for module projects on our wiki site at: http://sword.sf.net/wiki/ You might want to post your intentions and progress and maybe you can get some help. -Troy. Steve Lorimer wrote: > Hi! > I'm new to the Sword project (although I've > followed it for at least a year). I'm interested in > keying in some commentaries. One in particular is not > in computerized form to my knowledge. (I've checked > CCEL and other sources.) What is the best way to go > about computerizing it. I will target a sword mod > primarily, but keep the plain text if anyone else > wants it. > I tried to download the vpl2mod, but it said the > file was missing. (Problem in the redirect to ftp I > guess.) Is vpl the best way? Any suggestions? > I appreciate the work that all of you are doing! > Keep it up, and may God bless you all and this > project. > > In Christ, > Steve Lorimer > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 18:58:30 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Barry Drake) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 18:58:30 -0000 Subject: [sword-devel] Beginning help question In-Reply-To: <20021206171623.43606.qmail@web41001.mail.yahoo.com> References: <200212061602.38709.mg.pub@gmx.net> Message-ID: <3DF0F356.30535.696E06A@localhost> Hi Steve ....... On 6 Dec 2002 at 9:16, Steve Lorimer wrote: > I'm new to the Sword project (although I've > followed it for at least a year). I'm interested in > keying in some commentaries. One in particular is not > in computerized form to my knowledge. (I've checked > CCEL and other sources.) What is the best way to go > about computerizing it. If you can make the text file but have difficulty making that into a module I'm willing to write a little routine to convert. vpl2mod MUST follow the KJV versification exactly else it will fall over - that can be a problem. I've always written little C routines, but others use a Perl script to run addvs on one verse at a time. If you do Perl, that might be easy for you. God bless, Barry -- From Barry Drake (The Revd) minister of the Arnold and the Netherfield United Reformed Churches, Nottingham see http://www.arnold-urc.supanet.com and http://www.jesusinnetherfield.org.uk for our church homepages). Replies - b.drake@ntlworld.com From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 18:53:01 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Dave Hall) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 12:53:01 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] Beginning help question - Calvin's Commentaries Message-ID: <0530398ED6DBD211AC9200902745F005066E7927@goldberg.internal.clearcommerce.com> I have created a module for Calvin's Commentaries and was asked to put this in imp format. I converted my Module to an import file. But "mod2imp" appears to lose the verse links so that the commentary text is only tied to the first verse of a reference. For example: addvs -a $MOD "2Corinthians 1:1-5" filename Adds the text in file "filename" to 2Cor. 1:1 but also does the linking (addvs -l) to verses 2,3,4 & 5 for me. So, loaking at any of these verses shows the same text. But, in the import file you just see: $$$II Corinthians 1:1 $$$II Corinthians 1:6 [...] Where it should be: $$$II Corinthians 1:1-5 $$$II Corinthians 1:6-11 [...] I am using the 1.5.5 linux tools. Here is the command I ran: mod2imp CalvinCom > calvincom [creates 1 60MB file] Am I doing something wrong? I want to make sure the Modules works properly for everyone before I release it. Once this is working what do I do? Upload it to the beta site? How? Thanks for the help. - Dave Hall P.S. I tried the wiki link below and got "Not Found The requested URL /cgi-bin/twiki/view was not found on this server.". Is the link wrong or do I need a login or something on SourceForge? -----Original Message----- From: Troy A. Griffitts [mailto:scribe@crosswire.org] Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 12:00 PM To: sword-devel@crosswire.org Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Beginning help question Steve, Thanks for your willingness to help and serve with us. The latest versions of the windows commandline tools are at: ftp://ftp.crosswire.org/pub/sword/utils/win32 I would suggest our 'imp' format, so imp2vs is probably what you'll want to use (if the commentary is keyed to Bible book ch:vs). The imp format looks something like this: $$$jn1:1 This is commentary on John 1:1 $$$jn1:2-5 This is commentary on John 1:2 - John 1:5 Blessings on your endeavours. We have a new wiki page setup for module projects on our wiki site at: http://sword.sf.net/wiki/ You might want to post your intentions and progress and maybe you can get some help. -Troy. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 19:14:51 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 12:14:51 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Beginning help question - Calvin's Commentaries References: <0530398ED6DBD211AC9200902745F005066E7927@goldberg.internal.clearcommerce.com> Message-ID: <3DF0F72B.6000700@crosswire.org> Dave, Yeah, I also had troubles with sf today. I think they're just having server problems (or else they changed their wiki url structure). It could just be that mod2imp doesn't yet correctly handle exporting of linked verses. That's a very probable conclusion, so I wouldn't worry about it, if I were you. Now _I_ have to worry about it. :) Thanks for taking all this time to work on such a large piece of work! I'm sure Chris can let you know where he'd like the module (emailed, or a link to it posted somewhere). He can place it in the beta site for you. -Troy. Dave Hall wrote: > > I have created a module for Calvin's Commentaries and was asked to put this > in imp format. > > I converted my Module to an import file. But "mod2imp" appears to lose the > verse links so that the commentary text is only tied to the first verse of a > reference. > > For example: > addvs -a $MOD "2Corinthians 1:1-5" filename > Adds the text in file "filename" to 2Cor. 1:1 but also does the linking > (addvs -l) to verses 2,3,4 & 5 for me. So, loaking at any of these verses > shows the same text. > > But, in the import file you just see: > $$$II Corinthians 1:1 > > $$$II Corinthians 1:6 > > [...] > > Where it should be: > $$$II Corinthians 1:1-5 > > $$$II Corinthians 1:6-11 > > [...] > > I am using the 1.5.5 linux tools. > > Here is the command I ran: > mod2imp CalvinCom > calvincom > [creates 1 60MB file] > > Am I doing something wrong? I want to make sure the Modules works properly > for everyone before I release it. > > Once this is working what do I do? Upload it to the beta site? How? > > > Thanks for the help. > > - Dave Hall > > P.S. I tried the wiki link below and got "Not Found The requested URL > /cgi-bin/twiki/view was not found on this server.". Is the link wrong or do > I need a login or something on SourceForge? > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Troy A. Griffitts [mailto:scribe@crosswire.org] > Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 12:00 PM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Beginning help question > > > Steve, > Thanks for your willingness to help and serve with us. The latest > versions of the windows commandline tools are at: > > ftp://ftp.crosswire.org/pub/sword/utils/win32 > > I would suggest our 'imp' format, so imp2vs is probably what you'll > want to use (if the commentary is keyed to Bible book ch:vs). > > The imp format looks something like this: > > $$$jn1:1 > This is commentary on John 1:1 > $$$jn1:2-5 > This is commentary on John 1:2 - John 1:5 > > Blessings on your endeavours. We have a new wiki page setup for module > projects on our wiki site at: > > http://sword.sf.net/wiki/ > > You might want to post your intentions and progress and maybe you can > get some help. > > -Troy. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 19:37:46 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Dave Hall) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 13:37:46 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] Beginning help question - Calvin's Commentaries Message-ID: <0530398ED6DBD211AC9200902745F005066E7928@goldberg.internal.clearcommerce.com> OK. I could possibly generate an import file from the source instead of rawcom. Is the structure of the import file defined somewhere? The $$$ is clear but Calvin does a harmony of the Gospels and the Law so I would like to link 2 or more gospel(or law) passages to the same text. Would something like these work: $$$MATTHEW 1:1-17 $$$LUKE 3:23-38 or $$$MATTHEW 1:1-17; LUKE 3:23-38 Chris, I could upload the zcom (20MB) or rawcom files somewhere. Or, if I get the import file correct, I could up load that but its 60MB. - Dave -----Original Message----- From: Troy A. Griffitts [mailto:scribe@crosswire.org] Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 1:15 PM To: sword-devel@crosswire.org Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Beginning help question - Calvin's Commentaries Dave, Yeah, I also had troubles with sf today. I think they're just having server problems (or else they changed their wiki url structure). It could just be that mod2imp doesn't yet correctly handle exporting of linked verses. That's a very probable conclusion, so I wouldn't worry about it, if I were you. Now _I_ have to worry about it. :) Thanks for taking all this time to work on such a large piece of work! I'm sure Chris can let you know where he'd like the module (emailed, or a link to it posted somewhere). He can place it in the beta site for you. -Troy. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 19:43:37 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 21:43:37 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: An old topic, infinitive/participle Message-ID: Keith Ralston asked about Mark 1:7 some time ago. I had a similar problem. I think that in Mark the basic meaning is "I'm not worthy to unloose". "kupsas" or participle generally - not in this case particularly - may mean e.g. "after stooping down", "stooping down at the same time" or "because of stooping down" or even "regardless of the fact that I stooped down". In this case "kupsas" tells under what circumstances the unloosing happens. Therefore I would tag "stoop down and" and "to unloose". Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 19:45:41 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Matthew Donadio) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 14:45:41 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] NRSV on ftp.crosswire.cx Message-ID: <3DF0FE65.C18ED246@ieee.org> I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, and I can't find my link to the mailing list archive, so... It looks like the NRSV module in ftp.crosswire.cx:/pub/sword/betaraw is munged. A bunch of books on the NT are missing the first verse: Galations through 3 John seem to have the problem. If this hasn't been noticed yet, let me know and I will investigate it some more. -- Matthew Donadio (m.p.donadio@ieee.org) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 20:15:47 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 13:15:47 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Beginning help question - Calvin's Commentaries References: <0530398ED6DBD211AC9200902745F005066E7928@goldberg.internal.clearcommerce.com> Message-ID: <3DF10573.3050809@crosswire.org> Dave, if you have the test programs, parsetest should show you if you have a valid range. Something like: parsetest "mat 1:1-17;lk 3:23-38" should show that this is valid, and you can assume that anything parsetest recognizes will be treated the same way in a $$$ imp key, so: $$$mat 1:1-17;lk 3:23-38 SHOULD work, but I can't guarantee it. If it doesn't, we should fix it. If you try it and it does, let us know so we can tell others with confidence :) -Troy. Dave Hall wrote: > OK. > > I could possibly generate an import file from the source instead of rawcom. > > Is the structure of the import file defined somewhere? > The > $$$ > > is clear but Calvin does a harmony of the Gospels and the Law so I would > like to link 2 or more gospel(or law) passages to the same text. > > Would something like these work: > $$$MATTHEW 1:1-17 > $$$LUKE 3:23-38 > > or > $$$MATTHEW 1:1-17; LUKE 3:23-38 > > > > Chris, I could upload the zcom (20MB) or rawcom files somewhere. Or, if I > get the import file correct, I could up load that but its 60MB. > > - Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Troy A. Griffitts [mailto:scribe@crosswire.org] > Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 1:15 PM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Beginning help question - Calvin's > Commentaries > > > Dave, > Yeah, I also had troubles with sf today. I think they're just > having > server problems (or else they changed their wiki url structure). > > It could just be that mod2imp doesn't yet correctly handle exporting > of > linked verses. That's a very probable conclusion, so I wouldn't worry > about it, if I were you. Now _I_ have to worry about it. :) > > Thanks for taking all this time to work on such a large piece of > work! > I'm sure Chris can let you know where he'd like the module (emailed, > or a link to it posted somewhere). He can place it in the beta site for > you. > > -Troy. > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 19:35:14 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 00:35:14 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Beginning help question In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 06 Dec 2002 18:58:30 GMT." <3DF0F356.30535.696E06A@localhost> References: <200212061602.38709.mg.pub@gmx.net> <3DF0F356.30535.696E06A@localhost> Message-ID: > I've always written little C routines, but others use a Perl script to run > addvs on one verse at a time. If you do Perl, that might be easy for you. Note that Python (www.python.org) as opposed to Perl is relatively easy to learn even for people who never before had programming experience. It is also easier to program. -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 20:56:09 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Mike & Amy) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:56:09 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] MacSword? Message-ID: <2563FFB2-095D-11D7-B3C0-0050E4D9A408@earthlink.net> I noticed the other day someone mentioned something about "MacSword." Is it available for download or is this something in the works for a future time? I just discovered the SWORD project a couple weeks ago so much of this is new to me. Thanks. Amy From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 21:18:45 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Dave Hall) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 15:18:45 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] Beginning help question - Calvin's Commentaries Message-ID: <0530398ED6DBD211AC9200902745F005066E792B@goldberg.internal.clearcommerce.com> I tried $$$Acts 1:3-5; Acts 1:6-8 and that worked just fine. Actually I generated Calvin's commentary on Acts in imp format and then used "imp2vs" to create the rawcom module and it worked! So, with a bit more fiddling with my script I'll regenerate the whole mod in imp format. I'll email when that's done and I look it over. Thanks for the quick response. - Dave -----Original Message----- From: Troy A. Griffitts [mailto:scribe@crosswire.org] Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 2:16 PM To: sword-devel@crosswire.org Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Beginning help question - Calvin's Commentaries Dave, if you have the test programs, parsetest should show you if you have a valid range. Something like: parsetest "mat 1:1-17;lk 3:23-38" should show that this is valid, and you can assume that anything parsetest recognizes will be treated the same way in a $$$ imp key, so: $$$mat 1:1-17;lk 3:23-38 SHOULD work, but I can't guarantee it. If it doesn't, we should fix it. If you try it and it does, let us know so we can tell others with confidence :) -Troy. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 22:01:28 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Steve Lorimer) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:01:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sword-devel] New commentary project In-Reply-To: <0530398ED6DBD211AC9200902745F005066E792B@goldberg.internal.clearcommerce.com> Message-ID: <20021206220128.27018.qmail@web41002.mail.yahoo.com> Troy, Thanks very much for the help. One other question, some of the commentary text is in italics, etc. Is that supported? For all - I would like to begin digitizing John Bengel's Gnomon of the New Testament (2 vol.) My copies were printed in 1860, so there shouldn't be any copywrite problems. I have not found a digital source for these, so I will be manually digitizing them. If someone knows of a digital source, I would be delighted to know where. Thanks, In Christ, Steve Lorimer __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 22:11:19 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:11:19 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Beginning help question - Calvin's Commentaries References: <0530398ED6DBD211AC9200902745F005066E792B@goldberg.internal.clearcommerce.com> Message-ID: <3DF12087.1000106@crosswire.org> Dave, I wasn't too worried about consecutive entries like your example. It's the discontiguous example, like in your previous email with mat and lk that I'm worried about. You should probably check one before doing the entire module. Thanks! Looking forward to making your labors available for others to take advantage of. -Troy. Dave Hall wrote: > I tried > > $$$Acts 1:3-5; Acts 1:6-8 > > > and that worked just fine. > > Actually I generated Calvin's commentary on Acts in imp format and then used > "imp2vs" to create the rawcom module and it worked! So, with a bit more > fiddling with my script I'll regenerate the whole mod in imp format. > > I'll email when that's done and I look it over. > > Thanks for the quick response. > > - Dave > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Troy A. Griffitts [mailto:scribe@crosswire.org] > Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 2:16 PM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Beginning help question - Calvin's > Commentaries > > > Dave, > > if you have the test programs, parsetest should show you if you have a > valid range. Something like: > > parsetest "mat 1:1-17;lk 3:23-38" > > should show that this is valid, and you can assume that anything > parsetest recognizes will be treated the same way in a $$$ imp key, so: > > $$$mat 1:1-17;lk 3:23-38 > > > SHOULD work, but I can't guarantee it. If it doesn't, we should fix it. > If you try it and it does, let us know so we can tell others with > confidence :) > > -Troy. > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 22:22:03 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Hugo van der Kooij) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 23:22:03 +0100 (CET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: jude In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > I have started Jude. Please check some verses and give some comments. .... Wouldn't it make sense to host a mailinglist for the documents stuff. I can not help out in any way when it comes to Latin or Hebrew. And I guess people who are more into programming and packaging will neither. (The occasional programming rev. is more an exception to the rule. ;-) On the other hand people working on the documents will not be programming or anything like it. So to me this sounds like we need to split up this list. Hugo. -- All email sent to me is bound to the rules described on my homepage. hvdkooij@vanderkooij.org http://hvdkooij.xs4all.nl/ Don't meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are subtle and quick to anger. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 7 00:25:34 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Will Thimbleby) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 00:25:34 +0000 Subject: [sword-devel] MacSword? In-Reply-To: <2563FFB2-095D-11D7-B3C0-0050E4D9A408@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <66DF1010-097A-11D7-B413-003065B2931A@york.ac.uk> Yep, You can grab MacSword at http://www.heathmoor.plus.com/macsword/. It's a Mac OS X only program. If you have any problems, email me. Will Thimbleby On Friday, December 6, 2002, at 08:56 pm, Mike & Amy wrote: > I noticed the other day someone mentioned something about "MacSword." > Is it available for download or is this something in the works for a > future time? I just discovered the SWORD project a couple weeks ago so > much of this is new to me. Thanks. > > Amy > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 7 01:40:07 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (nicc-lists email addy) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 12:40:07 +1100 Subject: [sword-devel] NRSV on ftp.crosswire.cx In-Reply-To: <3DF0FE65.C18ED246@ieee.org> Message-ID: Hi there Matthew. Yes, it has been noticed but so far noone has stepped up to the task of looking into it, or fixing it (as far as I'm aware -- I reported the problem many months ago, but have been unable to find time to look into it further)... if you're up to it, please look into it some more and see where the problem is -- our module, or the source we used, and then act on that... :) thanks! :) ybic nic... :) On Saturday, Dec 7, 2002, at 06:45 Australia/Sydney, Matthew Donadio wrote: > I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, and I can't find my > link > to the mailing list archive, so... > > It looks like the NRSV module in ftp.crosswire.cx:/pub/sword/betaraw is > munged. A bunch of books on the NT are missing the first verse: > Galations through 3 John seem to have the problem. > > If this hasn't been noticed yet, let me know and I will investigate it > some more. > > -- > Matthew Donadio (m.p.donadio@ieee.org) > > "Morality may keep you out of jail, but it takes the blood of Christ to keep you out of Hell." -- Charles Spurgeon ------------------------------------------------- Interested in finding out more about God, Jesus, Christianity and "the meaning of life"? Visit http://www.christianity.net.au ------------------------------------------------- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 8 01:01:27 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 18:01:27 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] MacSword? References: <2563FFB2-095D-11D7-B3C0-0050E4D9A408@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3DF299E7.1020006@crosswire.org> Amy, It seems many people are interested and confused about MacSword. We've not done a very good job giving information about it on CrossWire's site. So, we've recently made MacSword our feature of the month at http://www.crosswire.org We hope to post more information shortly, but this should, at least, direct people to the right place. Thanks for commenting, -Troy. Mike & Amy wrote: > I noticed the other day someone mentioned something about "MacSword." > Is it available for download or is this something in the works for a > future time? I just discovered the SWORD project a couple weeks ago so > much of this is new to me. Thanks. > > Amy From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 8 19:28:38 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Martin Gruner) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:28:38 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] website trouble Message-ID: <200212082028.38486.mg.pub@gmx.net> http://www.crosswire.org/sword/index.jsp gives the following error atm: HTTP Status 500 - type Exception report message description The server encountered an internal error () that prevented it from fulfilling this request. exception org.apache.jasper.JasperException: Unable to compile class for JSP An error occurred at line: -1 in the jsp file: null Generated servlet error: [javac] Compiling 1 source file The system is out of resources. Consult the following stack trace for details. java.lang.OutOfMemoryError at org.apache.jasper.compiler.DefaultErrorHandler.javacError(Unknown Source) at org.apache.jasper.compiler.ErrorDispatcher.javacError(Unknown Source) at org.apache.jasper.compiler.Compiler.generateClass(Unknown Source) at org.apache.jasper.compiler.Compiler.compile(Unknown Source) at org.apache.jasper.JspCompilationContext.compile(Unknown Source) at org.apache.jasper.servlet.JspServletWrapper.service(Unknown Source) at org.apache.jasper.servlet.JspServlet.serviceJspFile(Unknown Source) at org.apache.jasper.servlet.JspServlet.service(Unknown Source) at javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java) at org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.internalDoFilter(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.doFilter(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardWrapperValve.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline$StandardPipelineValveContext.invokeNext(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContextValve.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline$StandardPipelineValveContext.invokeNext(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.authenticator.AuthenticatorBase.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline$StandardPipelineValveContext.invokeNext(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContext.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardHostValve.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline$StandardPipelineValveContext.invokeNext(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorDispatcherValve.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline$StandardPipelineValveContext.invokeNext(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorReportValve.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline$StandardPipelineValveContext.invokeNext(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardEngineValve.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline$StandardPipelineValveContext.invokeNext(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.coyote.tomcat4.CoyoteAdapter.service(CoyoteAdapter.java:223) at org.apache.jk.server.JkCoyoteHandler.invoke(JkCoyoteHandler.java:256) at org.apache.jk.common.HandlerRequest.invoke(HandlerRequest.java:361) at org.apache.jk.common.ChannelSocket.invoke(ChannelSocket.java:563) at org.apache.jk.common.ChannelSocket.processConnection(ChannelSocket.java:535) at org.apache.jk.common.SocketConnection.runIt(ChannelSocket.java:638) at org.apache.tomcat.util.threads.ThreadPool$ControlRunnable.run(ThreadPool.java:533) at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:536) Apache Tomcat/4.1 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 8 20:30:43 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Keith Ralston) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:30:43 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: some words translated with a preposition In-Reply-To: <3DEE1D0C.9020407@one.net> Message-ID: I have a question for the list: in Heb 5:12 there is 'which {FI}be{Fi}' ... /what/ is _which_ supposed to be marked with? If I understand your question, you need to tag the word "which" in the following phrase: _ye_have_need_that_one_teach_you_again_*which*_{FI}be{Fi}_the_first_principles_of_the_oracles_of_God Coming from the Greek phrase: PALIN KREIAN EXETE TOU DIDASKEIN hUMAS TINA TA STOIXEIA THS ARXHS TWN LOGIWN THEOU παλιν χρειαν εχετε του διδασκειν υµας τινα τα στοιχεια της αρχης των λογιων του θεου I believe that TINA satisfies your requirement. Let me know if this helps. Keith > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Benjamin Norman > Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 9:20 AM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: Re: [sword-devel] kjv2003: some words translated with a > preposition > > > mea culpa, > > Having done a few chapters since this verse and having reviewed my Greek > grammar book for exactly this question: 'than' should go with the > genitive word, as was your first inclination :). I will change this, > thanks for bringing that to my attention. I would be interested in any > further issues in my proofing of Hebrews so if you want something more > to do, why not second proof any green chapters on the status page? > (hopefully you won't find much more in mine after chapter 2 but if you > do so much the better, I can be humble about it O:) > > LIST READERS WANTING TO HELP WITH KJV2003: > This goes for all you other lurkers out there not feeling able to take > responsibility for a whole book or chapter. The Greek to English leaves > a lot of room for discussion and I don't mind being peer reviewed :) > especially if it means a better more useful tool for others, in fact I > want it. I have second guessed myself much along the way (ie should > non-declined words like the Hebrew words in Greek {like melchisedek} be > tagged with English prepositions like 'of'... which later examples > indicates yes, otherwise you get into strange situations) ... if you > want to review and document the norms we all are using for use in the > guidelines to help others while you are at it /even better/! > > I have a question for the list: in Heb 5:12 there is 'which {FI}be{Fi}' > ... /what/ is _which_ supposed to be marked with? Nothing I tried to > match it to with seemed right, and I left it unmarked until further > inspiration. So far it has stumped Troy and myself (sorry Troy ;). > > humbly yours, > Benjamin > > > Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > > I noticed that in Heb 1:4 "kreittoon toon aggeloon" is tagged so that > > "kreittoon" is "better than" and "toon aggeloon" is "the angels". First > > I thought that it was a mistake. After all "than" is included only when > > the substantive is in genitive. but then I noticed I have a similar > > problem in Jude. In v. 24 "katenoopion" is "in the presence of" even in > > the dictionary. However, "of" belongs to it only in some circumstances > > and thus would belong to "glory". > > > > So, which one is better? I would add "of" to "glory". > > > > Sincerely Yours, > > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland > > > > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 8 20:32:38 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Keith Ralston) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:32:38 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: "tina" in heb 5:12 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One should be tagged with the infinitive. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Eeli Kaikkonen > Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 5:07 PM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: Re: [sword-devel] kjv2003: "tina" in heb 5:12 > > > On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Benjamin Norman wrote: > > > genitive word, as was your first inclination :). I will change this, > > Sounds reasonable. I will add "of" to "glory". > > > I have a question for the list: in Heb 5:12 there is 'which {FI}be{Fi}' > > ... /what/ is _which_ supposed to be marked with? Nothing I tried to > > match it to with seemed right, and I left it unmarked until further > > inspiration. So far it has stumped Troy and myself (sorry Troy ;). > > > > So two blind need one who can lead them ;) > > UBS Greek New Testament tells that "tina/", accent on the second > syllable, is not very certain. Byzantine text has "ti/na". BAGD says > that "ti, ti/na" can be used "as a substitute for the relative" > (meaning 1 b dzeta). So "tina" is not "that one" but "which". "One" > means that "one teaches" and "one" is implied from context. Maybe it > should be tagged with "teach". > > Let me fall into ditch if I am wrong. > > Sincerely Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 8 20:37:24 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Keith Ralston) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:37:24 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: <3DEF832E.40903@crosswire.org> Message-ID: The article hO functions as a relative pronoun in this sentence. You should tag "who" with "hO". I realize this goes against our consensus on articles. However, the article is used for more than just indicating arthorous nouns, as we see in this verse. This should solve your problem of multiple tags (at least for now). > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Troy A. Griffitts > Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 10:48 AM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: Re: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? > > > Eeli, > Leave a note, we'll tag it manually. It's much easier to > hit these few > cases manually than modify the software to allow multiple splits. > Thanks for asking. > > -Troy. > > > > Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > > In Rev 1:9 there is "kai adelfos hymoon" which is translated "who also > > am your brother". I think that "adelfos" is "who am brother", but then > > it should be split twice because of "also" and "your". How to solve > > this? > > > > Sincerely Yours, > > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland > > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 8 20:44:43 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Keith Ralston) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:44:43 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: An old topic, infinitive/participle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My question was regarding the and that had been added between the verbs in the infinitive and the participle. Of course, to belongs with un loose, that is the infinitive. Where does the conjunction belong? As I am observing the KJV translation style, I am thinking the conjunction should be tagged with the participle. They seem to translate the participle with this style in many places. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Eeli Kaikkonen > Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 1:44 PM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: An old topic, infinitive/participle > > > Keith Ralston asked about Mark 1:7 some time ago. I had a similar > problem. I think that in Mark the basic meaning is "I'm not worthy to > unloose". "kupsas" or participle generally - not in this case > particularly - may mean e.g. "after stooping down", "stooping down at > the same time" or "because of stooping down" or even "regardless of > the fact that I stooped down". In this case "kupsas" tells under what > circumstances the unloosing happens. > > Therefore I would tag "stoop down and" and "to unloose". > > Sincerely Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Mon Dec 9 16:41:08 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (John Gardner) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:41:08 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I too believe in an in errant scripture. And that I truly have the word of God. At the same time, I don't think we can know which "original" text is the absolute correct one ( 1:1 word correspondence with the original letter penned by by the original authors). Or the translation. I don't believe that I must have the perfect original text or the perfect translation. And what I am reacting against is this sort of fear that unless I have all those things I can't function as Christian. No, I feel more a need for an obedient perfect heart than I do for perfect texts and translation. In my way of thinking, people who have to have everything completely "untainted" by man really reveal unbelief in the all sufficiency of God. This God who is able to sovereignly bring the promised Messiah via the lineage of a harlot! I am not a language scholar. I guess what I meant by Christ using the septuagint is that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John quote Christ and I believe those quotes are from the septuagint. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of porton@narod.ru > Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 4:06 PM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: Re: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? > > > > The scriptures actually address these issues. > > 1) Christ himself (and the apostles) quoted the septuagint (as > opposed to > > the original hebrew) as authoritative. > > Jesus Christ himself never quoted septuagint (except of probably > rare cases > when He spoke with Greeks). > > Apostles in The Authoritative Texts really quoted septugiant, but > > 1. They quoted only some fragments of septugiant, not all of it. > > 2. AFAIK (I haven't yet checked, if I mistaken correct me.) the > quotes from > septugiant in NT are not literal but sometimes somehow changed. > This does not > add authority to septugiant. > > 3. BIBLE NEVER MISTAKES, BUT Paul epistles utterly CONTRADICT (!!) to > Apostol's Acts speaking in Bible about whether people who was > with Paul heard > voice but not seen light or vice verse. But that place when Paul > speaks the > preaching it is a quoted (by Luke) speaking, not a direct saying > of Bible, > Paul surely messed here. Bible never mistakes (as opposed to man's who > participated in its writing such as Paul) and never contradicts > to itself: The > correct is version of the Paul's epistle (where Paul is > mistakeless co-author > with God, while in Acts the co-author is Luke and Paul isn't and > Paul mistakes > in preaching). So, you have no foundation to refer to sayings of > apostles as > authoritative, even reverse, we all mistaken. > > > 2) Everything WE do is mixed with ourselves, whether it is preaching, > > giving, singing, or praying. Yet it the scriptures teach us that for > > Christ's sake, they are accepted. Even when imperfect (and > they always are) > > in themselves. > > I don't know this teaching. I believe in ZERO errors of any kinds > in Bible. > -- > Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Mon Dec 9 17:56:01 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Fred Laxton) Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 12:56:01 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] MacSword? References: <2563FFB2-095D-11D7-B3C0-0050E4D9A408@earthlink.net> <3DF299E7.1020006@crosswire.org> Message-ID: <3DF4D931.4060408@laxton.net> Excellent! I first heard about it on this list a week or two(?) ago, and thought I knew nearly all of the free software bible programs out there - but I had never heard of MacSword. I tried it and it works great. Thanks for updating the crosswire site. Fred Troy A. Griffitts wrote: > Amy, > It seems many people are interested and confused about MacSword. > We've not done a very good job giving information about it on > CrossWire's site. So, we've recently made MacSword our feature of the > month at http://www.crosswire.org We hope to post more information > shortly, but this should, at least, direct people to the right place. > > Thanks for commenting, > -Troy. > -- -- Fred Laxton My contact information: http://infotechdesign.net/my_contact_information.htm Powered by Yellow Dog Linux and Mandrake Linux From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 05:09:41 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Russell) Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 21:09:41 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DF57715.2010507@u.washington.edu> John Gardner wrote: >I too believe in an in errant scripture. And that I truly have the word of >God. At the same time, I don't think we can know which "original" text is >the absolute correct one ( 1:1 word correspondence with the original letter >penned by by the original authors). Or the translation. I don't believe that >I must have the perfect original text or the perfect translation. And what >I am reacting against is this sort of fear that unless I have all those >things I can't function as Christian. No, I feel more a need for an >obedient perfect heart than I do for perfect texts and translation. In my >way of thinking, people who have to have everything completely "untainted" >by man really reveal unbelief in the all sufficiency of God. This God who is >able to sovereignly bring the promised Messiah via the lineage of a harlot! > >I am not a language scholar. I guess what I meant by Christ using the >septuagint is that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John quote Christ and I believe >those quotes are from the septuagint. > > Well as far as *i* am concerned, this issue has nothing to do with fear. For future reference: when you are discussing and issue with someone, try not to color the argument with emotionally manipulative words like "fear" when no one has expressed such an emotion. This is a way to make the other argument sound bad, but it is neither fair nor logical nor honest. ;) Christians often use their concept of "faith" as a license to discount anything that might shed doubt on their beliefs, right or wrong. The issue is about scholastic freedom and completeness, and not about how much faith has someone who wants the original text. The argument against someone who seeks that, on whatever basis, sounds a lot more like fear: fear that there could be dissent about the traditional text (not original) or some other issue that has, comfortably, not been stirred. Well, techincally this thread is a dead issue :). There really are more important issues out there, and i am OK with just having a filter to turn off the vowels. I think that is enough. Also: i know that compromises must be made, so even if this issue was not "settled" for me, i would move on anyway. I only wanted to take this time to encourage Christians to not act like all other religions which defend themselves against the wrong things in the wrong ways. Muslims would make all of the same claims you just made, and should i then accept them? Basing the correctness of any modern text, institution, or doctrine on the concept that "God is sufficient to make sure everything works right, therefore, i know that this is right, because God would have made it so" is a very fallacious line of reasoning which must be rejected because it is neither logical nor unique in all the religions of the world (who is an unbeliever to believe? they all attribute their "holy" things to their gods!). Furthermore, there is plenty of proof that the system has failed time and time again, and proof even in Jesus' words themselves that we continue to fail God and mess things up ("shall I find faith?", "few there be"), and we are not His "Kingdom", for that has not yet come. God's Kingdom would not be so divided, so corrupt, or so murderous (in reference to The "Church" as it once existed for hundreds of years -- the only major institution of Christianity, and certainly the official one -- the early to present Catholic Church). I don't put my trust in man as having gotten everything or even MOST things correct; not even those men that claim so, especially since they are all from different religions with different gods! But this is not a fear. This is just facing the facts as i see them. The truth is to be found by a careful study of Jesus' words and the prophet's words, with fresh eyes, assuming NO doctrines to be true. I just thought i would clear that up. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 12:09:26 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:09:26 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: An old topic, infinitive/participle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: > My question was regarding the and that had been added between the verbs in > > Therefore I would tag "stoop down and" and "to unloose". If I understood right, I already answered the question. I would add "and" to participle. Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 13:48:41 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:48:41 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: > The article hO functions as a relative pronoun in this sentence. You should Do you have any proof for that? Moulton says in his grammar (syntax) that "There is no instance of the article as a reletive pronoun in the NT" (page 37). Nor does BAGD give it that meaning. Is that possible in Koine generally? If it is, then it might be so because our TR text adds "kai" which is not in USB NT and the syntax might be different. Is there anyone amongst us who really knows or is this just guessing? I don't know how competent you others are. I'm just an amateur. > > Leave a note, we'll tag it manually. It's much easier to I still leave it untagged with a note unless someone proves otherwise. > > > In Rev 1:9 there is "kai adelfos hymoon" which is translated "who also Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 14:11:59 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (David's Mailing List and Spam Receiver) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:11:59 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc Message-ID: <200212100912.00489.davidslists@gmx.net> I was wondering if there was going to be any support for possibly making modules that contain maps or images or something anytime soon? -- Davids Mailing List And Spam Receiver Keeping me (relatively) spam free since 2002 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 14:23:42 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:23:42 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I also checked NKJV for Rev 1:9. It translates "I, John, both your brother and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom..." There is no relative "who" there. Maybe the translators of the original KJV just had different view about this kind of syntax. Even if they made a mistake, we should find out what they thought and tag the words accordingly. Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 14:40:07 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Glassey) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:40:07 -0000 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: <200212100912.00489.davidslists@gmx.net> Message-ID: <3DF5FCC7.4939.626EA29@localhost> as soon as anyone that has that itch writes it ;) anyone? daniel On 10 Dec 2002 at 9:11, David's Mailing List and Spam sent forth the message: > I was wondering if there was going to be any support for possibly making > modules that contain maps or images or something anytime soon? > > -- > Davids Mailing List And Spam Receiver > Keeping me (relatively) spam free since 2002 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 15:19:12 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 20:19:12 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: Message from "David's Mailing List and Spam Receiver" of "Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:11:59 EST." <200212100912.00489.davidslists@gmx.net> References: <200212100912.00489.davidslists@gmx.net> Message-ID: > I was wondering if there was going to be any support for possibly making > modules that contain maps or images or something anytime soon? I suggest just to add directory /usr/(local)/sahre/sword/img, put there (in subdirs) images and add opening images in external viewers for Linux (such as Electric Eues), when clicked by an image hyperlink in HTMl/ThML/... -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 15:37:24 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (David's Mailing List and Spam Receiver) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:37:24 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: References: <200212100912.00489.davidslists@gmx.net> Message-ID: <200212101037.25132.davidslists@gmx.net> On Tuesday 10 December 2002 10:19 am, porton@narod.ru wrote: > > I was wondering if there was going to be any support for possibly making > > modules that contain maps or images or something anytime soon? > > I suggest just to add directory /usr/(local)/sahre/sword/img, put there (in > subdirs) images and add opening images in external viewers for Linux (such > as Electric Eues), when clicked by an image hyperlink in HTMl/ThML/... Hmmmmm.... But wouldn't the ability to annotate the maps also be good? Link to verses about the area or perhaps add cultural or other types of notes so that people who aren't intimately familiar with the biblical area know what's going on and those that are maybe learning something new? -- Davids Mailing List And Spam Receiver Keeping me (relatively) spam free since 2002 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 15:53:55 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Mike Sangrey) Date: 10 Dec 2002 10:53:55 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1039535637.30496.112.camel@sojurn.lns.pa.us> I apologize if I've added to the confusion in something I said which wasn't clear. Anyway, Moulton's statement surprised me, so I looked up some things in Robertson's big tome. He mentions that "Moulton finds several examples in late papyri of hO as relative," so hO as relative is fairly common in the Koine. Moulton is claiming, though, it doesn't occur in the NT. Robertson also mentions a scholar named Mayser as inclined to regard hO KAI as relative. He also mentions that hO KAI was very common in NT times with what he calls "double names". He cites Acts 13:9 where we have "Saul, also Paul". I think the issue really boils down to more of a translation issue than a "how does one tag the Greek text" issue. It's about the differences in language; that is, between the original Greek language and how we in English do the same thing. In Greek they didn't need to use a relative to do what John does in Rev. 1:9. They could simply say, EGW IWANNHS, hO [KAI] ADELFOS hUMWN. How do we say the same meaning in English? Well, we very likely would use the relative pronoun `who'. So, how do you tag it then? As an article because that is the syntax the original author is using? Or as a relative, since that is the meaning the original author is using? Robertson cites Rev. 1:4,8; 11:17 and says, "One either has to say that here hO is used as a relative or that it is a relative. It all comes to the same in the end." And that really sums up the issue here. Some Sword users will want searches on syntax (that is, a focus on the FORMS). Others will want to search based on semantics (that is, a focus on MEANING). You need both sets of tags and they need to be cleanly seperated--something no Greek grammars have been able to do. My recommendation, for what it might be worth: tag it as an article since we don't have a clean separation between syntactic and semantic tags. On Tue, 2002-12-10 at 08:48, Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > On Sun, 8 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: > > > The article hO functions as a relative pronoun in this sentence. You should > > Do you have any proof for that? Moulton says in his grammar (syntax) > that "There is no instance of the article as a reletive pronoun in the > NT" (page 37). Nor does BAGD give it that meaning. Is that possible in > Koine generally? If it is, then it might be so because our TR text adds > "kai" which is not in USB NT and the syntax might be different. > > Is there anyone amongst us who really knows or is this just guessing? I > don't know how competent you others are. I'm just an amateur. > > > > Leave a note, we'll tag it manually. It's much easier to > > I still leave it untagged with a note unless someone proves otherwise. > > > > > In Rev 1:9 there is "kai adelfos hymoon" which is translated "who also > > Sincerely Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland -- Mike Sangrey msangrey@BlueFeltHat.org Landisburg, Pa. "The first one last wins." "A net of highly cohesive details reveals the truth." From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 16:41:52 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:41:52 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? Message-ID: <20021210164156.2699.qmail@mailshell.com> I could find no declaration of theological affiliation on the SWORD project page, though Crosswire certainly *seems* Protestant. So, I'm kind of scratching my head wondering why some of the contributors are: 1) assuming that their fellow contributors are like-minded theologically and 2) "witnessing" to anyone who comes along and shows themselves not to share their theological position. I rather thought that the purpose of the project was development of the software, which is an applied technological domain and not a theological one. Discussion of how theology and technology may inform and/or interact with one another might be better served on another list--as it's an interesting topic. That said, I'll comment on the following, with absolutely no attempt at staying on-topic, so be forewarned! :) Daniel Russell wrote: > God's Kingdom would not be so divided, so corrupt, or so > murderous (in reference to The "Church" as it once existed for > hundreds of years -- the only major institution of Christianity, and > certainly the official one -- the early to present Catholic > Church). The "early to present Catholic Church", by which I assume you mean the Roman Catholic Church is not in fact the "only major institution of Christianity". In the 11th century A.D. Rome split from the other 4 sister churches--the Patriarchates of Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople, Alexandria--in what we refer to as the "Great Schism". These Patriarchates still exist and have grown into the following churches: Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Russia, Georgia, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Greece, Albania, Poland, the Czech Lands and Slovakia, Sinai, Finland, Japan, Ukraine, and the Orthodox Church in America. Bishop Kallistos Ware's history of the Orthodox Church is available at this link if you're interested in more of the history: http://www.synaxis.org/sschool/Orthodox_Church.html > The truth is to be found by a careful study of Jesus' words and the > prophet's words, with fresh eyes, assuming NO doctrines to be true. This is a rather odd statement, indeed! Assume *no* doctrine to be true? This places a rather large amount of reliance upon personal insight and interpretation. But interpretation in the Church has always been corporate. What about 2 Thessalonians 2:15--"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." Or how about Peter 1:20--"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." After all, in Acts 15:28 "the apostles, the elders, and the whole church" wrote, "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us..." and not "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost and *me*". And furthermore, Matthew 18:20--"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Yes, we are given the Spirit for understanding, but it is always within the framework of the entire Body of Christ, the Church and not individually. This whole issue of obsessive concern with textual analysis is endemic to Protestant Christianity which abandoned itself to the Solas, alienating itself thereby, from the guidance of the Fathers and Holy Tradition. Orthodox are at best bemused with all the concern for proof texts and modern scholastic textual criticism and analysis. Not that Orthodox ignore it or see no value in it, but we see it as very much a secondary tool. We believe that Christ's teachings have been preserved by the Apostles and the Church, against which [that is, the Church] the gates of Hades shall never prevail. We insist that the scripture is only properly understood within the framework of the life of the Church no matter how authoritative the text you are reading or how open your eyes may be. Ephrem From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 17:39:52 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (David's Mailing List and Spam Receiver) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:39:52 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: <3DF5FCC7.4939.626EA29@localhost> References: <3DF5FCC7.4939.626EA29@localhost> Message-ID: <200212101239.52344.davidslists@gmx.net> On Tuesday 10 December 2002 09:40 am, Daniel Glassey wrote: > as soon as anyone that has that itch writes it ;) anyone? So I guess I'll end up doing it then eventually. I'm wondering though how much of this should be left up to front ends and how much should be handled at the library level. -- Davids Mailing List And Spam Receiver Keeping me (relatively) spam free since 2002 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 18:10:53 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Jerry Hastings) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:10:53 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: <20021210164156.2699.qmail@mailshell.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021210110010.00a6a500@mail.dancris.com> At 11:41 AM 12/10/2002 -0500, ephrem_sword@tuirgin.mailshell.com wrote: >.... Discussion of how theology and technology may inform >and/or interact with one another might be better served on another >list--as it's an interesting topic.... The call to end this off topic thread has already been made by one who has the power to make it so. BTW: Interesting combination of ideas, the "Great Schism", and "corporate" interpretation. Jerry From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 19:02:47 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Patrick Narkinsky) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:02:47 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: <200212101239.52344.davidslists@gmx.net> Message-ID: Thus spake "David's Mailing List and Spam Receiver"> : > So I guess I'll end up doing it then eventually. I'm wondering though how much > of this should be left up to front ends and how much should be handled at the > library level. For what it's worth, I thought about looking at doing an atlas some time ago. At the time, I was not able to find any high-quality, freely available maps to supply the data. Not to say that there are none - but I would check for the data before I wrote the software. Patrick -- Patrick Narkinsky - Apprentice Pastor, Hope Community Church - 757-652-9540 "Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - Chesterton From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 19:04:35 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Martin Gruner) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 20:04:35 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: <200212101239.52344.davidslists@gmx.net> References: <3DF5FCC7.4939.626EA29@localhost> <200212101239.52344.davidslists@gmx.net> Message-ID: <200212102004.35158.mg.pub@gmx.net> > So I guess I'll end up doing it then eventually. I'm wondering though how > much of this should be left up to front ends and how much should be handled > at the library level. Yeah! Go ahead! I am not sure though as to how easy it would be. Vector or pixel based or both? What about zoom/detail levels? What about turning map features on/off? We should probably look at existing solutions. Does Logos have a system like this? Maybe there is some opensource project that we could use for this purpose? It would definitely be awesome to have support for Maps. It is a major undertaking though. Martin From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 19:06:55 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Russell) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:06:55 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021210110010.00a6a500@mail.dancris.com> References: <4.2.0.58.20021210110010.00a6a500@mail.dancris.com> Message-ID: <3DF63B4F.4090200@u.washington.edu> Jerry: -- i'll make no further comment on this thread. Patrick and i have taken the issue off the list. I think (hope) it's just a friendly conversation about ideas. :) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 19:34:36 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Lamar Owen) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:34:36 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: <200212102004.35158.mg.pub@gmx.net> References: <3DF5FCC7.4939.626EA29@localhost> <200212101239.52344.davidslists@gmx.net> <200212102004.35158.mg.pub@gmx.net> Message-ID: <200212101434.36748.lamar.owen@wgcr.org> On Tuesday 10 December 2002 14:04, Martin Gruner wrote: > > So I guess I'll end up doing it then eventually. I'm wondering though how > > much of this should be left up to front ends and how much should be > > handled at the library level. > We should probably look at existing solutions. Does Logos have a system > like this? Maybe there is some opensource project that we could use for > this purpose? There are a number of mapping packages out there, with various levels of complexity. See the www.freegis.org site for links to many mapping software packages. I use a couple of mapping packages here -- GRASS, and GMT. GRASS is overkill for simple maps, though -- it is a full-scale Geographic Information System. GMT might be a good fit, and produces PostScript output. It can do various projections, zooms, scales, rotations, colorings, etc., given relatively simple vector and raster format files. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 20:11:19 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Patrick Narkinsky) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:11:19 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: <200212101434.36748.lamar.owen@wgcr.org> Message-ID: Thus spake "Lamar Owen"> : > There are a number of mapping packages out there, with various levels of > complexity. See the www.freegis.org site for links to many mapping software > packages. I use a couple of mapping packages here -- GRASS, and GMT. GRASS > is overkill for simple maps, though -- it is a full-scale Geographic > Information System. GMT might be a good fit, and produces PostScript output. > It can do various projections, zooms, scales, rotations, colorings, etc., > given relatively simple vector and raster format files. I guess I still see this as a major scholarly undertaking. In many cases, the locations of various towns are matters of conjecture, not fact. (e.g. Jericho.) Then, you've got to account for the way Palestine looked at various times. I suppose you could get a good Biblical atlas and see where they put the towns, then put them in the same place on your map, but just having a modern map is not enough. Patrick -- Patrick Narkinsky - Apprentice Pastor, Hope Community Church "Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - Chesterton From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 20:37:02 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Chris Little) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 13:37:02 -0700 (MST) Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: <200212100912.00489.davidslists@gmx.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, David's Mailing List and Spam Receiver wrote: > I was wondering if there was going to be any support for possibly making > modules that contain maps or images or something anytime soon? Two brief points: 1) Images are handled currently in Sword (the library) but are not dealt with in any of the front ends. Consult the mailing list logs for details. It's clean, modular, and uses directories relative to the module path along with ThML image tags. (Currently I think ThML is the only markup we support that could handle images.) There once were some maps for a module, but I think they've disappeared. I'll make fixing the Catholic Encyclopedia module and incorporating images a priority so we have something to test (as soon as I finish my semester). 2) We don't want bloated GIS libraries or anything like that. Small is good. We want to remain portable, remember. But that said, it would be nice to add some coordinate capabilties that deal with various projections so that we can do overlays, if possible. --Chris From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 20:30:25 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 01:30:25 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: Message from Jerry Hastings of "Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:10:53 MST." <4.2.0.58.20021210110010.00a6a500@mail.dancris.com> References: <4.2.0.58.20021210110010.00a6a500@mail.dancris.com> Message-ID: > At 11:41 AM 12/10/2002 -0500, ephrem_sword@tuirgin.mailshell.com wrote: > >.... Discussion of how theology and technology may inform > >and/or interact with one another might be better served on another > >list--as it's an interesting topic.... > > The call to end this off topic thread has already been made by one who has > the power to make it so. Yes, certainly I am going to create a special mailing list for discussion about so called (by me) clean Bible. Just wait release of my first milestone program (Please, please, don't discuss it before you've seen the release!) However if you like I can create this special theology list earlier. -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 21:00:12 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Lamar Owen) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:00:12 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200212101600.12581.lamar.owen@wgcr.org> On Tuesday 10 December 2002 15:11, Patrick Narkinsky wrote: > Thus spake "Lamar Owen"> : > > There are a number of mapping packages out there, with various levels of > > complexity. See the www.freegis.org site for links to many mapping > > software packages. I use a couple of mapping packages here -- GRASS, and > I guess I still see this as a major scholarly undertaking. In many cases, > the locations of various towns are matters of conjecture, not fact. (e.g. > Jericho.) Then, you've got to account for the way Palestine looked at > various times. I suppose you could get a good Biblical atlas and see where > they put the towns, then put them in the same place on your map, but just > having a modern map is not enough. GRASS and GMT both handle any map files you throw at them -- they are not tied into any given 'modern' map. However, they do allow overlaying and such things, as well as user customization of the maps. The full GMT distribution in binary RPM form is 17MB currently -- however, one can pick and choose the programs one needs, as GMT has a large number of programs. GRASS likewise could be trimmed down -- from 33MB to less, I'm sure. The flexibility of both packages is incredible, though. And again, these are just two packages I have personal experience with -- there are many others listed on the FreeGIS page. GIS is about tools to assist in the major scholarly undertaking of mapping, not about regurgitating prepared maps from various sources. Whether that is a SWORD issue or not is up to interpretation. Personally, it would be nice to have an interface to a GIS, with some mapping data available, but not in the core SWORD distribution, unless you do want just simple PostScript or other format images to be displayed. PostScript is good simply because the interpreter is to be found already for virtually all SWORD-supported platforms, in the form of GhostScript. PostScript is by nature scalable, rotatable, and in general highly mungable. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 21:39:29 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Hugo van der Kooij) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:39:29 +0100 (CET) Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: <200212101600.12581.lamar.owen@wgcr.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Lamar Owen wrote: > Whether that is a SWORD issue or not is up to interpretation. Personally, it > would be nice to have an interface to a GIS, with some mapping data > available, but not in the core SWORD distribution, unless you do want just > simple PostScript or other format images to be displayed. PostScript is good > simply because the interpreter is to be found already for virtually all > SWORD-supported platforms, in the form of GhostScript. PostScript is by > nature scalable, rotatable, and in general highly mungable. Just an issue to think of: Is the fileformat an open standard? To me at least GIF is a no-go issue. Another issue is that (small) images would be a very usefull addition when it comes to comments and such. You could spend a booklet to describe something which might be made clear with just a simple picture. I'm sorry I can't scratch the itch. I just don't happen to be a programmer. (At least I don't want to call me a programmer.) Hugo. -- All email sent to me is bound to the rules described on my homepage. hvdkooij@vanderkooij.org http://hvdkooij.xs4all.nl/ Don't meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are subtle and quick to anger. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 21:50:07 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Steve Lorimer) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 13:50:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: <200212101239.52344.davidslists@gmx.net> Message-ID: <20021210215007.88781.qmail@web41008.mail.yahoo.com> I see the discussion has shifted to using an external map program - which is fine. However, internal image support would be nice for books that have pictures (not related to maps). Unfortunately I am not a programmer, or I would offer to help with some code. :) In Christ, Steve Lorimer --- David's Mailing List and Spam Receiver wrote: > On Tuesday 10 December 2002 09:40 am, Daniel Glassey > wrote: > > as soon as anyone that has that itch writes it ;) > anyone? > > So I guess I'll end up doing it then eventually. I'm > wondering though how much > of this should be left up to front ends and how much > should be handled at the > library level. > > -- > Davids Mailing List And Spam Receiver > Keeping me (relatively) spam free since 2002 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 22:06:37 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 03:06:37 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:39:29 +0100." References: Message-ID: > On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Lamar Owen wrote: > > Just an issue to think of: Is the fileformat an open standard? To me at > least GIF is a no-go issue. Both PostScript and PDF are standards developed by Adobe which we are free to use. -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 22:20:04 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Steve Lorimer) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:20:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sword-devel] Materials use question In-Reply-To: <20021210215007.88781.qmail@web41008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20021210222004.2441.qmail@web41002.mail.yahoo.com> Please pardon my ignorance if I am asking this question in the wrong place. I contacted a source requesting permission to convert some of their OLB modules to Sword format. I received permission, but they asked about putting the Sword program/materials on a cd they were getting ready to produce. The cd would contain much more than just the Sword program and materials. How does this work? Thank you In Christ, Steve Lorimer __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 23:46:24 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Lamar Owen) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 18:46:24 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: <200212101846.24294.lamar.owen@wgcr.org> On Tuesday 10 December 2002 17:06, porton@narod.ru wrote: > > On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Lamar Owen wrote: > > Just an issue to think of: Is the fileformat an open standard? To me at > > least GIF is a no-go issue. > Both PostScript and PDF are standards developed by Adobe which we are free > to use. Please don't misattribute the quote to me; I didn't say to use GIF. PostScript is practically completely open, and encapsulated PostScript is something of a standard for graphics import. Everything can print to PostScript -- it's an ideal language for maps, since maps aren't images, they're graphics. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 11 01:14:25 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Steve Lorimer) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 17:14:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sword-devel] Question about markup language Message-ID: <20021211011425.59809.qmail@web41010.mail.yahoo.com> Could someone please tell me or point me in the direction of the imp formatting? Or, should I be using a different format? 1. Does it support italics, bold, etc. and what are the codes? 2. If a (commentary in this case) links to itself, how is that done? 3. Any other useful info along these lines. Thank you, In Christ, Steve Lorimer __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 11 02:28:06 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 02:28:06 GMT Subject: [sword-devel] Re: Maps, etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20021211022806.14157.qmail@mail.airnet.com.au> Second try - my first attempt bounced. Unfortunately I don't have the info at hand right now, but The Online Bible Software Site has some user-supplied modules for OLB that provide maps, and I think some other diagrams as well. (Plus, there was even a "movie" of the tabernacle.) This may be worth checking out. As for the format to use, PNG is free, and is well supported these days. Brian. Patrick Narkinsky writes: > Thus spake "David's Mailing List and Spam Receiver"> : > > > So I guess I'll end up doing it then eventually. I'm wondering though how much > > of this should be left up to front ends and how much should be handled at the > > library level. > > For what it's worth, I thought about looking at doing an atlas some time > ago. At the time, I was not able to find any high-quality, freely available > maps to supply the data. Not to say that there are none - but I would check > for the data before I wrote the software. > > Patrick > > -- > Patrick Narkinsky - Apprentice Pastor, Hope Community Church - 757-652-9540 > > "Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons > exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - Chesterton > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 11 03:03:31 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (David's Mailing List and Spam Receiver) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:03:31 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200212102203.31848.davidslists@gmx.net> On Tuesday 10 December 2002 03:37 pm, Chris Little wrote: > Two brief points: > > 1) Images are handled currently in Sword (the library) but are not dealt > with in any of the front ends. Consult the mailing list logs for details. > It's clean, modular, and uses directories relative to the module path > along with ThML image tags. (Currently I think ThML is the only markup we > support that could handle images.) Can I annotate these and perhaps make image maps out of them? For example click on Jerusalem on a 1st century Judea map and several can happen depending on how the module and/or front end is setup. A map of Jerusalem proper appears, or a link to a culture and customs book appears keyed to Jerusalem, or info about arechalogical dig, or a 3d projection of the terrain (more useful than you might think), or any other sort of annotation or commentary I want shows up. > There once were some maps for a module, but I think they've disappeared. > I'll make fixing the Catholic Encyclopedia module and incorporating images > a priority so we have something to test (as soon as I finish my semester). Yay, and I'm learning C++ next semester so maybe I can even help. :D > 2) We don't want bloated GIS libraries or anything like that. Small is > good. We want to remain portable, remember. But that said, it would be > nice to add some coordinate capabilties that deal with various > projections so that we can do overlays, if possible. Definitely. I mean how cool would it be to be able to tell the front end to overlay a modern map overtop of an ancient map so that you can see where things are relative and stuff. Then you can turn off those sometimes annoying "Present day boundries" lines in maps. -- Davids Mailing List And Spam Receiver Keeping me (relatively) spam free since 2002 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 11 01:54:16 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Keith Ralston) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 19:54:16 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: <1039535637.30496.112.camel@sojurn.lns.pa.us> Message-ID: Thanks for digging, Mike. I do not have Moulton or Robertson at home. I have Dana and Mantey who reference Robertson's page 68 when discussing this. I haven't had time to run to the library. I'm not sure about slicing so thinly between semantics and syntax. I agree with the general approach we've taken to the article. Our approach assumes the use of the article with a substantive. This is only a fraction of the article's usage. I do believe the article to have more flexibility than our rule allows. We should tag the exceptions. We should allow the Greek to do its thing. It isn't always as neat as we'd like it to be. That's my nickel's worth. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Mike Sangrey > Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 9:54 AM > To: Sword Development > Subject: RE: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? > > > I apologize if I've added to the confusion in something I said which > wasn't clear. > > Anyway, Moulton's statement surprised me, so I looked up some things in > Robertson's big tome. He mentions that "Moulton finds several examples > in late papyri of hO as relative," so hO as relative is fairly common in > the Koine. Moulton is claiming, though, it doesn't occur in the NT. > Robertson also mentions a scholar named Mayser as inclined to regard hO > KAI as relative. He also mentions that hO KAI was very common in NT > times with what he calls "double names". He cites Acts 13:9 where we > have "Saul, also Paul". > > I think the issue really boils down to more of a translation issue than > a "how does one tag the Greek text" issue. It's about the differences > in language; that is, between the original Greek language and how we in > English do the same thing. In Greek they didn't need to use a relative > to do what John does in Rev. 1:9. They could simply say, EGW IWANNHS, > hO [KAI] ADELFOS hUMWN. How do we say the same meaning in English? > Well, we very likely would use the relative pronoun `who'. So, how do > you tag it then? As an article because that is the syntax the original > author is using? Or as a relative, since that is the meaning the > original author is using? > > Robertson cites Rev. 1:4,8; 11:17 and says, "One either has to say that > here hO is used as a relative or that it is a relative. It all comes to > the same in the end." > > And that really sums up the issue here. Some Sword users will want > searches on syntax (that is, a focus on the FORMS). Others will want to > search based on semantics (that is, a focus on MEANING). You need both > sets of tags and they need to be cleanly seperated--something no Greek > grammars have been able to do. > > My recommendation, for what it might be worth: tag it as an article > since we don't have a clean separation between syntactic and semantic > tags. > > On Tue, 2002-12-10 at 08:48, Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > > On Sun, 8 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: > > > > > The article hO functions as a relative pronoun in this > sentence. You should > > > > Do you have any proof for that? Moulton says in his grammar (syntax) > > that "There is no instance of the article as a reletive pronoun in the > > NT" (page 37). Nor does BAGD give it that meaning. Is that possible in > > Koine generally? If it is, then it might be so because our TR text adds > > "kai" which is not in USB NT and the syntax might be different. > > > > Is there anyone amongst us who really knows or is this just guessing? I > > don't know how competent you others are. I'm just an amateur. > > > > > > Leave a note, we'll tag it manually. It's much easier to > > > > I still leave it untagged with a note unless someone proves otherwise. > > > > > > > In Rev 1:9 there is "kai adelfos hymoon" which is > translated "who also > > > > Sincerely Yours, > > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland > -- > Mike Sangrey > msangrey@BlueFeltHat.org > Landisburg, Pa. > "The first one last wins." > "A net of highly cohesive details reveals the truth." > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 11 04:35:39 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Rev. Michael Paul Johnson) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:35:39 +1000 Subject: [sword-devel] CD-ROM In-Reply-To: <3D7161DA.20306@crosswire.org> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021211142041.0207d4c8@mail.sil.org.pg> --=====================_22457682==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello, Troy! How is it going? Could I get you to send me at least one of the latest Sword Project CD? Downloads in Papua New Guinea are both expensive and very time-consuming. I could send you a check for what it costs (probably about $5 for everything) under separate cover if you tell me how much it is. Thanks! Michael & Lori Johnson SIL BOX 421 UKARUMPA 444 EHP PAPUA NEW GUINEA Rev. Michael Paul Johnson Servant of Jesus Christ mpj@eBible.org http://eBible.org/mpj/ --=====================_22457682==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Hello, Troy!

How is it going?

Could I get you to send me at least one of the latest Sword Project CD? Downloads in Papua New Guinea are both expensive and very time-consuming. I could send you a check for what it costs (probably about $5 for everything) under separate cover if you tell me how much it is. Thanks!

Michael & Lori Johnson
SIL BOX 421
UKARUMPA 444 EHP
PAPUA NEW GUINEA

Rev. Michael Paul Johnson
Servant of Jesus Christ
mpj@eBible.org
http://eBible.org/mpj/
--=====================_22457682==_.ALT-- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 11 05:01:11 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:01:11 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] CD-ROM References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021211142041.0207d4c8@mail.sil.org.pg> Message-ID: <3DF6C697.3070706@crosswire.org> Surely! Welcome back! I'll get some in the mail to you straight away. I was hoping you'd help us on the kjv2003 project :) We still have a bunch of chapters unassigned. -Troy. http://www.crosswire.org/sword/kjv2003/ Rev. Michael Paul Johnson wrote: > Hello, Troy! > > How is it going? > > Could I get you to send me at least one of the latest Sword Project CD? > Downloads in Papua New Guinea are both expensive and very > time-consuming. I could send you a check for what it costs (probably > about $5 for everything) under separate cover if you tell me how much it > is. Thanks! > > Michael & Lori Johnson > SIL BOX 421 > UKARUMPA 444 EHP > PAPUA NEW GUINEA > > > Rev. Michael Paul Johnson > Servant of Jesus Christ > mpj@eBible.org > http://eBible.org/mpj/ > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 11 06:00:59 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Rev. Michael Paul Johnson) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:00:59 +1000 Subject: [sword-devel] CD-ROM; GBF to XSEM In-Reply-To: <3DF6C697.3070706@crosswire.org> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021211142041.0207d4c8@mail.sil.org.pg> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021211154559.05615008@mail.sil.org.pg> --=====================_4912533==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 22:01 10-12-02 -0700, you wrote: >Surely! Welcome back! I'll get some in the mail to you straight away. Thanks! >I was hoping you'd help us on the kjv2003 project :) We still have a bunch of chapters unassigned. Alas, but not all worthy projects are projects that I should help with. I have my hands more than full enough with SIL software development, preaching, the beginnings of a radio project, the EBT web site, the World English Bible and World English Bible: Messianic Edition (AKA the Hebrew Names Version), some hobbies, and still having time to spend with my family. I think that the WEB and HNV work benefits you guys. I have been working mainly on the Old Testament, but also doing some recording (http://mp3.eBible.org/webaudio/) in my "spare" time. Besides, I'll try to feed back any glitches in the Tok Pisin (Melanesian Pidgin) Bible module if I find any. (I did see some, but wanted to see if they were in the latest distribution before I started work on feeding them back to you.) It is nice to have Bible study software with a Tok Pisin Bible in it, now that I live where it is spoken and know how to speak it myself. If anyone is interested in a GBF to XSEM (XML Scripture Encoding Model) converter written in C#, take a look at ftp://eBible.org/pub/new/gbf2xsem.zip (open source LGPL). Be blessed in Jesus' wonderful name! Rev. Michael Paul Johnson Servant of Jesus Christ mpj@eBible.org http://eBible.org/mpj/ --=====================_4912533==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 22:01 10-12-02 -0700, you wrote:

Surely! Welcome back! I'll get some in the mail to you straight away.

Thanks!

I was hoping you'd help us on the kjv2003 project :) We still have a bunch of chapters unassigned.

Alas, but not all worthy projects are projects that I should help with. I have my hands more than full enough with SIL software development, preaching, the beginnings of a radio project, the EBT web site, the World English Bible and World English Bible: Messianic Edition (AKA the Hebrew Names Version), some hobbies, and still having time to spend with my family. I think that the WEB and HNV work benefits you guys. I have been working mainly on the Old Testament, but also doing some recording (http://mp3.e= Bible.org/webaudio/) in my "spare" time. Besides, I'll try to feed back any glitches in the Tok Pisin (Melanesian Pidgin) Bible module if I find any. (I did see some, but wanted to see if they were in the latest distribution before I started work on feeding them back to you.) It is nice to have Bible study software with a Tok Pisin Bible in it, now that I live where it is spoken and know how to speak it myself.

If anyone is interested in a GBF to XSEM (XML Scripture Encoding Model) converter written in C#, take a look at ftp://e= Bible.org/pub/new/gbf2xsem.zip (open source LGPL).

Be blessed in Jesus' wonderful name!

Rev. Michael Paul Johnson
Servant of Jesus Christ
mpj@eBible.org
http://eBible.org/mpj/
--=====================_4912533==_.ALT-- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 11 08:29:29 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 01:29:29 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] new ISO Message-ID: <3DF6F769.9030005@crosswire.org> There's a new iso available at the usual place: ftp://ftp.crosswire.org/pub/sword/iso It's planning on going to the duplicators after I get some sleep and get there (about 10 hours after this message time). If you have a chance to test, please do so and report any issues that you find. Otherwise, enjoy. For God's Glory, -Troy. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 11 09:17:30 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:17:30 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: > I'm not sure about slicing so thinly between semantics and syntax. Meddling with semantics would be for experts only. With Greek/English syntax we have to worry about only handful of these difficulties. With semantics we would have ten discussions like this for every verse. This project is quite mechanic, but semantics is always interpretation. I would be interested in taggin real greek syntax (like whole sentences, relations of them etc.) but it would take couple of years of real studying first. > I agree > with the general approach we've taken to the article. Our approach assumes > the use of the article with a substantive. This is only a fraction of the > article's usage. I do believe the article to have more flexibility than our > rule allows. We must remember we are talkign about giving a tool for English reader to connect Greek/English words. Make it simple. Only rarely we have to take up a stand about syntax. > We should tag the exceptions. But how? In this case (Rev 1:9), would it be best to tag "ho kai" to "who also am"? It would be quite neutral about interpretion. At least more neutral than tagging the article to the relative pronoun. Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 11 10:28:21 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:28:21 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 10 Dec 2002 18:46:24 EST." <200212101846.24294.lamar.owen@wgcr.org> References: <200212101846.24294.lamar.owen@wgcr.org> Message-ID: > Please don't misattribute the quote to me; I didn't say to use GIF. > PostScript is practically completely open, and encapsulated PostScript is > something of a standard for graphics import. Everything can print to > PostScript -- it's an ideal language for maps, since maps aren't images, > they're graphics. We don't need namely *encaspulated* PostScript, this "encaspulation" is only for high quality typography. (However if we will use PostScript, better, yes, is encaspulated one.) I'm not sure whether PDF has analogous "encaspulation" features like PostScript, but as "encaspulation" is not important for us we in any case better to use PDF than PostScript (PDF is much smaller and faster). Free GhostScript (as well as some costly software from Adobe) can convert Postscript<->PDF, but does it AFAIK not very well, we need to check if enough well. Acrobat Reader or Xpdf (both free) can convert PDF->Postscript. P.S. For these who don't know: PDF and PS are formats intended for multipage images of book's pages and like. Many typographies use these. There are several freeware/opensource viewers for both formats. -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 11 12:49:54 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Gary Sims) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:49:54 +0000 Subject: [sword-devel] Bits of 1 Peter missing in RomCor Message-ID: <200212111249.54143.gary@garysims.co.uk> Hi, Using BibleTime I have just seen that half of the first chapter and the rest of 1 Peter are missing from the Cornilescu Version of the Romanian Bible. Could someone please check this for me. Is it a BibleTime problem? A problem with the module? Did I have a download problem? Thanks, Gary -- Gary Sims Vulcan, Brasov, Romania gary@garysims.co.uk gary.sims@rdslink.ro From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 12 02:10:32 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Keith Ralston) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 20:10:32 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > But how? hO tags "who" and "am". I have been tagging implied verbs with their subjects. KAI tags "also". I had placed the question of implied verbs to the group. No one responded. In each of these cases, I am comfortable with my method for handling the tags. I am looking for consensus in order that we might have consistency. > We must remember we are talkign about giving a tool for English reader > to connect Greek/English words. Make it simple. Only rarely we have to > take up a stand about syntax. Myself and many others interested in the project use it for research. I want it tagged correctly. The approach taken by the KJV interpreters is clear. They treated the article as a pronoun. However, it the consensus is to tag no articles, I will comply. > Meddling with semantics would be for experts only. You keep referring to experts. What is your criteria for an expert? > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Eeli Kaikkonen > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 3:18 AM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: RE: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? > > > On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: > > > I'm not sure about slicing so thinly between semantics and syntax. > > Meddling with semantics would be for experts only. With Greek/English > syntax we have to worry about only handful of these difficulties. With > semantics we would have ten discussions like this for every verse. This > project is quite mechanic, but semantics is always interpretation. I > would be interested in taggin real greek syntax (like whole sentences, > relations of them etc.) but it would take couple of years of real > studying first. > > > I agree > > with the general approach we've taken to the article. Our > approach assumes > > the use of the article with a substantive. This is only a > fraction of the > > article's usage. I do believe the article to have more > flexibility than our > > rule allows. > > We must remember we are talkign about giving a tool for English reader > to connect Greek/English words. Make it simple. Only rarely we have to > take up a stand about syntax. > > > We should tag the exceptions. > > But how? In this case (Rev 1:9), would it be best to tag "ho kai" to > "who also am"? It would be quite neutral about interpretion. At least > more neutral than tagging the article to the relative pronoun. > > > Sincerely Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 12 05:18:13 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 21:18:13 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? References: Message-ID: <3DF81C15.3090907@crosswire.org> The tagging rules for the article as stated in the guidelines states that in most simple cases in the Greek, where there is an article noun pair, we do not use the article tag for anything. There ARE instances in which the greek article tag IS used, and I think you both are speaking of such cases. I've used it a few time as well. Here is an example: ???? ????? ????? ?? ?????????... ALLA TOUTO ESTIN TO EIRHMENON... >But< ALLA >this< TOUTO >is< ESTIN >that< TO >which_was_spoken< EIRHMENON Let me know if you'd tag it differently. -Troy. Keith Ralston wrote: >>But how? >> >> >hO tags "who" and "am". I have been tagging implied verbs with their >subjects. KAI tags "also". > >I had placed the question of implied verbs to the group. No one responded. >In each of these cases, I am comfortable with my method for handling the >tags. I am looking for consensus in order that we might have consistency. > > > >>We must remember we are talkign about giving a tool for English reader >>to connect Greek/English words. Make it simple. Only rarely we have to >>take up a stand about syntax. >> >> > >Myself and many others interested in the project use it for research. I >want it tagged correctly. The approach taken by the KJV interpreters is >clear. They treated the article as a pronoun. However, it the consensus is >to tag no articles, I will comply. > > > >>Meddling with semantics would be for experts only. >> >> > >You keep referring to experts. What is your criteria for an expert? > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org >>[mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Eeli Kaikkonen >>Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 3:18 AM >>To: sword-devel@crosswire.org >>Subject: RE: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? >> >> >>On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: >> >> >> >>>I'm not sure about slicing so thinly between semantics and syntax. >>> >>> >>Meddling with semantics would be for experts only. With Greek/English >>syntax we have to worry about only handful of these difficulties. With >>semantics we would have ten discussions like this for every verse. This >>project is quite mechanic, but semantics is always interpretation. I >>would be interested in taggin real greek syntax (like whole sentences, >>relations of them etc.) but it would take couple of years of real >>studying first. >> >> >> >>> I agree >>>with the general approach we've taken to the article. Our >>> >>> >>approach assumes >> >> >>>the use of the article with a substantive. This is only a >>> >>> >>fraction of the >> >> >>>article's usage. I do believe the article to have more >>> >>> >>flexibility than our >> >> >>>rule allows. >>> >>> >>We must remember we are talkign about giving a tool for English reader >>to connect Greek/English words. Make it simple. Only rarely we have to >>take up a stand about syntax. >> >> >> >>> We should tag the exceptions. >>> >>> >>But how? In this case (Rev 1:9), would it be best to tag "ho kai" to >>"who also am"? It would be quite neutral about interpretion. At least >>more neutral than tagging the article to the relative pronoun. >> >> >> Sincerely Yours, >> Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland >> >> >> From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 12 05:31:40 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (David's Mailing List and Spam Receiver) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 00:31:40 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: <200212100912.00489.davidslists@gmx.net> References: <200212100912.00489.davidslists@gmx.net> Message-ID: <200212120031.41632.davidslists@gmx.net> On Tuesday 10 December 2002 09:11 am, David's Mailing List and Spam Receiver wrote: > I was wondering if there was going to be any support for possibly making > modules that contain maps or images or something anytime soon? Here's another thought Charts. We could probably set up a dedicated charts and maps group if we get enough standalone modules. -- Davids Mailing List And Spam Receiver Keeping me (relatively) spam free since 2002 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 12 15:38:14 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Patrick Narkinsky) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:38:14 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] RSV Bug Message-ID: I found what appears to be a bug in the RSV module. John 5.4 is not present in the RSV or the NRSV (and please, let's not get into a theology debate on textual emendations. I have finals this week.) However, the module has John 5.5 in place of 5.4, 5.6 in place of 5.5, etc. This throws off the verse numbering by one in the whole remainder of the chapter. Just thought someone would like to know. Patrick -- Patrick Narkinsky - Apprentice Pastor, Hope Community Church "Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - Chesterton From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 12 16:03:55 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Lamar Owen) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:03:55 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Re: Maps, etc In-Reply-To: <20021211022806.14157.qmail@mail.airnet.com.au> References: <20021211022806.14157.qmail@mail.airnet.com.au> Message-ID: <200212121103.55753.lamar.owen@wgcr.org> On Tuesday 10 December 2002 21:28, bandds@airnet.com.au wrote: > As for the format to use, PNG is free, and is well supported these > days. IMHO, PNG support along with PS or PDF support would be wonderful. PNG is great for pictures and the like, and PS is great for scalable maps and diagrams. It would work to our advantage to support multiple formats, methinks. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 12 16:23:25 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Martin Gruner) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:23:25 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] Re: Maps, etc In-Reply-To: <200212121103.55753.lamar.owen@wgcr.org> References: <20021211022806.14157.qmail@mail.airnet.com.au> <200212121103.55753.lamar.owen@wgcr.org> Message-ID: <200212121723.25999.mg.pub@gmx.net> > IMHO, PNG support along with PS or PDF support would be wonderful. PNG is > great for pictures and the like, and PS is great for scalable maps and > diagrams. It would work to our advantage to support multiple formats, > methinks. As Daniel already pointed out, this aint gonna happen until somebody goes ahead and takes charge of it. Martin From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 12 19:11:04 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Chris Little) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 12:11:04 -0700 (MST) Subject: [sword-devel] Re: Maps, etc In-Reply-To: <200212121723.25999.mg.pub@gmx.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Martin Gruner wrote: > > IMHO, PNG support along with PS or PDF support would be wonderful. PNG is > > great for pictures and the like, and PS is great for scalable maps and > > diagrams. It would work to our advantage to support multiple formats, > > methinks. > > > As Daniel already pointed out, this aint gonna happen until somebody goes > ahead and takes charge of it. To comment on both messages, I don't think anyone should take charge of handling specific graphic format decoders/rasterizers or anything of that sort. I think we need to move towards simply using good HTML renderers as displays. GnomeSword & BibleTime probably already support much of the functionality we should strive for. Regarding formats, we should probably support PNG, JPEG, and SVG. I don't feel PDF is particularly well suited to this task and I don't think we should be incorporating PDF decoders in Sword. Mozilla supports all three natively, so incorporating Mozilla as a control would be a good move, IMO. Shortly, I'm going to begin some more serious work at doing this for BibleCS because I would like to see us be able to use Graphite for rendering (at least of Bibles) in the near term. (Another task for my 3-week vacation from school, I guess.) --Chris From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 12 22:20:18 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Martin Gruner) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 23:20:18 +0100 (MET) Subject: [sword-devel] Re: Maps, etc References: Message-ID: <30606.1039731618@www65.gmx.net> > > As Daniel already pointed out, this aint gonna happen until somebody goes > > ahead and takes charge of it. > > To comment on both messages, I don't think anyone should take charge of > handling specific graphic format decoders/rasterizers or anything of that > sort. I think we need to move towards simply using good HTML renderers as > displays. GnomeSword & BibleTime probably already support much of the > functionality we should strive for. Sorry for not making myself clear enough. I was referring to the whole task of integrating a new kind of module, maps and so forth, into sword. Neither am I an expert in this area, nor would I have the free time to do this; yet unless sombebody is willing to invest himself here, I don't believe that much is gonna happen. This is simple, but true. Martin From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 12 22:26:30 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 00:26:30 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: > I had placed the question of implied verbs to the group. No one responded. > In each of these cases, I am comfortable with my method for handling the > tags. I am looking for consensus in order that we might have consistency. > Consistency is very important if we want our work to be reliable for any use. As far as I know KJV is famous for being consistent considering words and syntax. Readers have to know that we have consistent tagging everywhere. > Myself and many others interested in the project use it for research. I > want it tagged correctly. Of course. That's why I was asking in the first place :) I just meant that usually the Greek/KJV relation is quite clear, but interpretations about meaning and shades of syntax may vary a lot. Maybe I am talking too much... > The approach taken by the KJV interpreters is > clear. They treated the article as a pronoun. Still I'm not convinced. But don't take mee too seriously, I'm stubborn. I left a note with this verse and you can contribute by telling your opinion. > > Meddling with semantics would be for experts only. > > You keep referring to experts. What is your criteria for an expert? > I can read Greek Testament, Moulton's grammar, BAGD lexicon etc. as you have seen. I have also soon done my first Greek course in university. Still I don't consider myself as an expert. Expert has read many books and articles about grammar and have understood most of what they have said. He also has access to specialized books and articles to solve questions like this. He can speak fluently about grammar and other things with scholarly terms. You have seen what kind of discussion arises when we talk about different interpretations of syntax. If we tried to explain Greek syntax (e.g. subject, object, predicative, relative clause, main clause) I wouldn't be able to do that. There would be too much advanced questions and discussion. The skills I mentioned would be needed for that kind of things. But I really don't know how "expert" you all are or how many "experts" there are amongst you. Maybe doing basic Greek grammar tagging is possible. Subordination of words and clauses might not be too complicated and time-consuming. Please notice that I'm not talking about this project here. We will have good usable module here if we have consistent tagging and justifications for our decisions. Tagging the grammar or something like that would take much more effort. Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 12 23:04:47 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 01:04:47 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: <3DF81C15.3090907@crosswire.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Troy A. Griffitts wrote: > ???? ????? ????? ?? ?????????... > ALLA TOUTO ESTIN TO EIRHMENON... > >But< ALLA > >this< TOUTO > >is< ESTIN > >that< TO > >which_was_spoken< EIRHMENON > > Let me know if you'd tag it differently. > "eirhmenon" = "that which was spoken". The article tells that the thing is something specific or known. "eirhmenon" without the article tells us all that "to eirhmenon" says except that it's something known, and we have tagged the english definite article with the base word anyways. In bad English we could translate "this is _the spoken_". But because it's bad English, it's "_that which was spoken_". Some native English speaker can tell me if it would be right to say "this is which was spoken" and if "that which" means different interpretation of the article. Does this make sense and do I have enough knowledge to talk about these things? > >hO tags "who" and "am". I have been tagging implied verbs with their > >subjects. KAI tags "also". > > > >I had placed the question of implied verbs to the group. No one responded. Can you make the question again with some examples (I probably missed it)?. Now it is good time to make the consensus. I also want to make it right, not just how I think it is right. (Right is how WE think it is right, right?) Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 01:02:33 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Adams) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:02:33 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Psuedopigrapha Message-ID: <001001c2a243$54c0df70$3c00000a@daninfochi> Hello All, I have an idea that I am interested in pursuing. I would like to be able to put copies of the Apocrypha and Psuedopigrapha into Sword possibly as General Book modules. A reason for my desire to accomplish this is that they could be referenceable via Diatheke (The Website interface). I am not sure how this could be done, and I don't have much knowledge with the libraries to figure out how to read from the modules. The reason for the e-mail is the question, how should I go about copying the texts from where I see them at ccel.org (which might have something available) and wesley.nnu.edu (which I doubt has a format that is good to use already. The texts are basically in a Book/Chapter/Verse format so I would like to get some insight on how to put into a format for modules. Can someone help me with this please? I would like to accomplish this because of the database I have as a concordance like thing that references them. I would like to help with this project. My thought is that it could be done as one module for all the Psuedopigrapha and Apocrypha parts separately, or would it be better to have a module for each Book? By the Grace of God. Dan Adams - infoChi@infomagic.net http://dana.ucc.nau.edu/~dpa3 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 15:18:57 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Chris Little) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 08:18:57 -0700 (MST) Subject: [sword-devel] Psuedopigrapha In-Reply-To: <001001c2a243$54c0df70$3c00000a@daninfochi> Message-ID: I'll post my 1 Enoch source text so you can have something to examine and model off of. Diatheke isn't curently set to handle GenBooks, but it's a future goal and shouldn't be difficult to implement (in theory). Doing a good interface might be a bigger problem. Having considered this problem myself, I can tell you that, for the most part, CCEL just has books copied from the Non-Canonical Homepage (wesley.nnu.edu) (except resources that are different). And the Non-Canonical Homepage has data in a pretty poor state. Most of the texts are scans from R.H. Charles' work, without any cleanup. The problem with this is that verse numbers in APOT are in the margin, but actual verse breaks happen mid-column, so lots of verse numbers need to be moved before anything else can be done. This might be a good distributed editing project, though I don't know whether it falls better in CrossWire's or CCEL's domain. Essentially, you'll need to do something like $$$1Enoch/1/1 Enoch woke up one morning and decided to write a book.... $$$1Enoch/1/2 In his book... etc. We need to decide on regularized book names (for which we should probably use SBL abbreviations, so I'll post a list that I compiled a while ago) and we need to decide whether to do collections of books or individual books as modules (I would opt for the former, collecting books from APOT into a single module, for example). But if we do an Apocrypha module, we should do that separately. We also would need to decide which translation to use for this, unless someone decides to implement Apocrypha support in Sword very soon, in which case we can just add them to individual modules that require them. --Chris From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 16:01:03 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Dave Hall) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 10:01:03 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] imp2vs linking problems Message-ID: <0530398ED6DBD211AC9200902745F005066E7955@goldberg.internal.clearcommerce.com> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2A2C0.D68BEC70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" imp2vs has verse linking problems. 1) It does not understand single-chapter-book refs like "Jude 20-25": >From file: Jude 20-25 adding entry: Revelation of John 19:1 linking entry: Revelation of John 19:2 to Revelation of John 19:1 linking entry: Revelation of John 19:3 to Revelation of John 19:1 linking entry: Revelation of John 19:4 to Revelation of John 19:1 [...] T hen when it gets to the end of Revelation it goes into an infinite loop: linking entry: Revelation of John 22:21 to Revelation of John 19:1 linking entry: Revelation of John 22:21 to Revelation of John 19:1 linking entry: Revelation of John 22:21 to Revelation of John 19:1 linking entry: Revelation of John 22:21 to Revelation of John 19:1 linking entry: Revelation of John 22:21 to Revelation of John 19:1 linking entry: Revelation of John 22:21 to Revelation of John 19:1 [...] 2) For whatever reason when it links to the last chapter of a book it then continues to link the text to the next book refs for Next-Book 0:0 and Next-Book 1:0 which I, as well as others (MHC), use for additional info: from file: Jude 1:20-25 adding entry: Jude 1:20 linking entry: Jude 1:21 to Jude 1:20 linking entry: Jude 1:22 to Jude 1:20 linking entry: Jude 1:23 to Jude 1:20 linking entry: Jude 1:24 to Jude 1:20 linking entry: Jude 1:25 to Jude 1:20 linking entry: Revelation of John 0:0 to Jude 1:20 linking entry: Revelation of John 1:0 to Jude 1:20 But parsekey seems to handle it OK: parsekey "Jude 1:20-25" Jude 1:20 - Jude 1:25 Another example: from file: MARK 16:19-20; LUKE 24:50-53 adding entry: Mark 16:19 linking entry: Mark 16:20 to Mark 16:19 linking entry: Luke 0:0 to Mark 16:19 linking entry: Luke 1:0 to Mark 16:19 linking entry: Luke 24:50 to Mark 16:19 linking entry: Luke 24:51 to Mark 16:19 linking entry: Luke 24:52 to Mark 16:19 linking entry: Luke 24:53 to Mark 16:19 linking entry: John 0:0 to Mark 16:19 linking entry: John 1:0 to Mark 16:19 parsekey "MARK 16:19-20" Mark 16:19 - Mark 16:20 This next one is particularly bad because I had previously linked text to 1John 1:0: from file: 1John 1:0 adding entry: I John 1:0 But it gets overridden here as the last link done (and in when viewed in Sword) so that the Intro material that was in 1 Jn 0:0 and 1:0 is lost/unviewable - you see the commentary text for 2 Peter 3:14-18: from file: 2Peter 3:14-18 adding entry: II Peter 3:14 linking entry: II Peter 3:15 to II Peter 3:14 linking entry: II Peter 3:16 to II Peter 3:14 linking entry: II Peter 3:17 to II Peter 3:14 linking entry: II Peter 3:18 to II Peter 3:14 linking entry: I John 0:0 to II Peter 3:14 linking entry: I John 1:0 to II Peter 3:14 - Dave Hall dhall@clearcommerce.com (512)626-5452 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2A2C0.D68BEC70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" imp2vs has verse linking problems.

1) It does not understand single-chapter-book refs like "Jude 20-25":

From file: Jude 20-25
adding entry: Revelation of John 19:1
linking entry: Revelation of John 19:2 to Revelation of John 19:1
linking entry: Revelation of John 19:3 to Revelation of John 19:1
linking entry: Revelation of John 19:4 to Revelation of John 19:1
[...]

T hen when it gets to the end of Revelation it goes into an infinite loop:

linking entry: Revelation of John 22:21 to Revelation of John 19:1
linking entry: Revelation of John 22:21 to Revelation of John 19:1
linking entry: Revelation of John 22:21 to Revelation of John 19:1
linking entry: Revelation of John 22:21 to Revelation of John 19:1
linking entry: Revelation of John 22:21 to Revelation of John 19:1
linking entry: Revelation of John 22:21 to Revelation of John 19:1

[...]

2) For whatever reason when it links to the last chapter of a book it then continues to link the text to the next book refs for Next-Book 0:0 and Next-Book 1:0 which I, as well as others (MHC), use for additional info:

from file: Jude 1:20-25
adding entry: Jude 1:20
linking entry: Jude 1:21 to Jude 1:20
linking entry: Jude 1:22 to Jude 1:20
linking entry: Jude 1:23 to Jude 1:20
linking entry: Jude 1:24 to Jude 1:20
linking entry: Jude 1:25 to Jude 1:20
linking entry: Revelation of John 0:0 to Jude 1:20
linking entry: Revelation of John 1:0 to Jude 1:20

But parsekey seems to handle it OK:

parsekey "Jude 1:20-25"
Jude 1:20 - Jude 1:25

Another example:

from file: MARK 16:19-20; LUKE 24:50-53
adding entry: Mark 16:19
linking entry: Mark 16:20 to Mark 16:19
linking entry: Luke 0:0 to Mark 16:19
linking entry: Luke 1:0 to Mark 16:19
linking entry: Luke 24:50 to Mark 16:19
linking entry: Luke 24:51 to Mark 16:19
linking entry: Luke 24:52 to Mark 16:19
linking entry: Luke 24:53 to Mark 16:19
linking entry: John 0:0 to Mark 16:19
linking entry: John 1:0 to Mark 16:19

parsekey "MARK 16:19-20"
Mark 16:19 - Mark 16:20

This next one is particularly bad because I had previously linked text to 1John 1:0:
from file: 1John 1:0
adding entry: I John 1:0

But it gets overridden here as the last link done (and in when viewed in Sword) so that the Intro material that was in 1 Jn 0:0 and 1:0 is lost/unviewable - you see the commentary text for 2 Peter 3:14-18:

from file: 2Peter 3:14-18
adding entry: II Peter 3:14
linking entry: II Peter 3:15 to II Peter 3:14
linking entry: II Peter 3:16 to II Peter 3:14
linking entry: II Peter 3:17 to II Peter 3:14
linking entry: II Peter 3:18 to II Peter 3:14
linking entry: I John 0:0 to II Peter 3:14
linking entry: I John 1:0 to II Peter 3:14

- Dave Hall
dhall@clearcommerce.com
(512)626-5452

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2A2C0.D68BEC70-- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 18:28:43 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Chris Little) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 11:28:43 -0700 (MST) Subject: [sword-devel] imp2vs linking problems In-Reply-To: <0530398ED6DBD211AC9200902745F005066E7955@goldberg.internal.clearcommerce.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Dave Hall wrote: > imp2vs has verse linking problems. > > 1) It does not understand single-chapter-book refs like "Jude 20-25": Correct. This is a Sword thing, that looks like Jude chapters 20-25 (in their entirety) which apparently get's interepreted as Rev 19-26 due to normalization of the reference. You should use Jude 1:20-25. > 2) For whatever reason when it links to the last chapter of a book it then > continues to link the text to the next book refs for Next-Book 0:0 and > Next-Book 1:0 which I, as well as others (MHC), use for additional info: I thought this was fixed but I will look into it. It may have been unfixed or you might have your hands on an old binary (possibly because binaries haven't been updated recently). It's not as simple as parsekey because it must visit each verse referenced to create the link. --Chris From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 18:11:33 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Adams) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 11:11:33 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Psuedopigrapha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001001c2a2d3$14895960$3c00000a@daninfochi> Chris, When you are saying that Diatheke isn't currently set to handle GenBooks, and you referring to the Diatheke.cgi type thing? If that is what you are thinking of, I am desiring to implement something to do that using VBscript and ASP pages or PHP, to interface to it and display the verses. Whatever version I develop would probably be multifunction in level so that the display part can be separated from the formatter I desire for my uses, I imagine the base displayer could be as the current CGI display is. Is there a preference as far as what is better ASP/VBscript or PHP? Also can anyone give me an idea how the PHP bindings from sword work? Or is there a way to interface to Diatheke from PHP or ASP/VBscript? This is something that I am more interested in, even though it is not a new platform for sword, along with testing with the English Modules. I did find one bug in the last few days, and I will post it to the list later on today probably. By the Grace of God, Dan Adams - infoChi@infomagic.net http://dana.ucc.nau.edu/~dpa3 -----Original Message----- From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org] On Behalf Of Chris Little Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 8:19 AM To: sword-devel@crosswire.org Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Psuedopigrapha I'll post my 1 Enoch source text so you can have something to examine and model off of. Diatheke isn't curently set to handle GenBooks, but it's a future goal and shouldn't be difficult to implement (in theory). Doing a good interface might be a bigger problem. Having considered this problem myself, I can tell you that, for the most part, CCEL just has books copied from the Non-Canonical Homepage (wesley.nnu.edu) (except resources that are different). And the Non-Canonical Homepage has data in a pretty poor state. Most of the texts are scans from R.H. Charles' work, without any cleanup. The problem with this is that verse numbers in APOT are in the margin, but actual verse breaks happen mid-column, so lots of verse numbers need to be moved before anything else can be done. This might be a good distributed editing project, though I don't know whether it falls better in CrossWire's or CCEL's domain. Essentially, you'll need to do something like $$$1Enoch/1/1 Enoch woke up one morning and decided to write a book.... $$$1Enoch/1/2 In his book... etc. We need to decide on regularized book names (for which we should probably use SBL abbreviations, so I'll post a list that I compiled a while ago) and we need to decide whether to do collections of books or individual books as modules (I would opt for the former, collecting books from APOT into a single module, for example). But if we do an Apocrypha module, we should do that separately. We also would need to decide which translation to use for this, unless someone decides to implement Apocrypha support in Sword very soon, in which case we can just add them to individual modules that require them. --Chris From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 18:21:45 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Dave Hall) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 12:21:45 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] imp2vs linking problems Message-ID: <0530398ED6DBD211AC9200902745F005066E795A@goldberg.internal.clearcommerce.com> Yea, I converted the refs to Jude 1: I loaded and compiled the 1.5.5 release on linux. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Little [mailto:chrislit@crosswire.org] Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 12:29 PM To: Sword Dev (E-mail) Subject: Re: [sword-devel] imp2vs linking problems On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Dave Hall wrote: > imp2vs has verse linking problems. > > 1) It does not understand single-chapter-book refs like "Jude 20-25": Correct. This is a Sword thing, that looks like Jude chapters 20-25 (in their entirety) which apparently get's interepreted as Rev 19-26 due to normalization of the reference. You should use Jude 1:20-25. > 2) For whatever reason when it links to the last chapter of a book it then > continues to link the text to the next book refs for Next-Book 0:0 and > Next-Book 1:0 which I, as well as others (MHC), use for additional info: I thought this was fixed but I will look into it. It may have been unfixed or you might have your hands on an old binary (possibly because binaries haven't been updated recently). It's not as simple as parsekey because it must visit each verse referenced to create the link. --Chris From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 18:26:55 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Adams) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 11:26:55 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] imp2vs linking problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001101c2a2d5$3a479a20$3c00000a@daninfochi> Now that I follow what this post is about, this is the Bug that I mentioned in an e-mail. I have also noticed this occurs for other books if you specify a chapter above the true chapter limit. I would say that it might make sense for the library to interpret the idea of Jude 5-7 as Jude 1:5-7 but to only do this when a book only contains one chapter. I have seen references such as Genesis 5-7 or so, which would be incorrect to interpret as Genesis 1:5-7 because it is intended Genesis 5 - Genesis 7. By the Grace of God, -----Original Message----- From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org] On Behalf Of Chris Little Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 11:29 AM To: Sword Dev (E-mail) Subject: Re: [sword-devel] imp2vs linking problems On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Dave Hall wrote: > imp2vs has verse linking problems. > > 1) It does not understand single-chapter-book refs like "Jude 20-25": Correct. This is a Sword thing, that looks like Jude chapters 20-25 (in their entirety) which apparently get's interepreted as Rev 19-26 due to normalization of the reference. You should use Jude 1:20-25. > 2) For whatever reason when it links to the last chapter of a book it > then continues to link the text to the next book refs for Next-Book > 0:0 and Next-Book 1:0 which I, as well as others (MHC), use for > additional info: I thought this was fixed but I will look into it. It may have been unfixed or you might have your hands on an old binary (possibly because binaries haven't been updated recently). It's not as simple as parsekey because it must visit each verse referenced to create the link. --Chris From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 20:24:17 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Brian Yoon) Date: 13 Dec 2002 14:24:17 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end Message-ID: <1039811073.12568.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> With regards to Sword for Windows, BibleTime, & GnomeSword: Just some questions and thoughts... 1) Has anyone considered using a cross-platform toolkit like wxWindows for this project so that we all can work on the same code, be able to compile on different platforms, and still maintain the look and feel of each respective OS? wxWindows is great and this would allow all of us to contribute to the same project. This would eliminate the need to re-invent the wheel for each OS. Therefore, instead of working on just an OS X port, we could port the existing front-end to wxWindows and then use it on all platforms. 2) Are the goals for each of these different (ie. is one focused on just providing a Bible study tool and another focused on providing a full-featured Bible study and analysis tool like BibleWorks)? 3) If someone wants to see an open source versin of a full-featured Bible study and analysis tool like the commercial software, BibleWorks, developed, what are the major components that are needed to be developed (ie. databases on morphologies, parsing, etc.)? -Brian Yoon From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 21:03:38 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Keith Ralston) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:03:38 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: <3DF81C15.3090907@crosswire.org> Message-ID: This is exactly what I'm doing. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Troy A. Griffitts > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 11:18 PM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: Re: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? > > > The tagging rules for the article as stated in the guidelines states > that in most simple cases in the Greek, where there is an article noun > pair, we do not use the article tag for anything. There ARE instances in > which the greek article tag IS used, and I think you both are speaking > of such cases. > > I've used it a few time as well. Here is an example: > ???? ????? ????? ?? ?????????... > ALLA TOUTO ESTIN TO EIRHMENON... > >But< ALLA > >this< TOUTO > >is< ESTIN > >that< TO > >which_was_spoken< EIRHMENON > > Let me know if you'd tag it differently. > > -Troy. > > > > > > Keith Ralston wrote: > > >>But how? > >> > >> > >hO tags "who" and "am". I have been tagging implied verbs with their > >subjects. KAI tags "also". > > > >I had placed the question of implied verbs to the group. No one > responded. > >In each of these cases, I am comfortable with my method for handling the > >tags. I am looking for consensus in order that we might have > consistency. > > > > > > > >>We must remember we are talkign about giving a tool for English reader > >>to connect Greek/English words. Make it simple. Only rarely we have to > >>take up a stand about syntax. > >> > >> > > > >Myself and many others interested in the project use it for research. I > >want it tagged correctly. The approach taken by the KJV interpreters is > >clear. They treated the article as a pronoun. However, it the > consensus is > >to tag no articles, I will comply. > > > > > > > >>Meddling with semantics would be for experts only. > >> > >> > > > >You keep referring to experts. What is your criteria for an expert? > > > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > >>[mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Eeli Kaikkonen > >>Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 3:18 AM > >>To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > >>Subject: RE: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? > >> > >> > >>On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>I'm not sure about slicing so thinly between semantics and syntax. > >>> > >>> > >>Meddling with semantics would be for experts only. With Greek/English > >>syntax we have to worry about only handful of these difficulties. With > >>semantics we would have ten discussions like this for every verse. This > >>project is quite mechanic, but semantics is always interpretation. I > >>would be interested in taggin real greek syntax (like whole sentences, > >>relations of them etc.) but it would take couple of years of real > >>studying first. > >> > >> > >> > >>> I agree > >>>with the general approach we've taken to the article. Our > >>> > >>> > >>approach assumes > >> > >> > >>>the use of the article with a substantive. This is only a > >>> > >>> > >>fraction of the > >> > >> > >>>article's usage. I do believe the article to have more > >>> > >>> > >>flexibility than our > >> > >> > >>>rule allows. > >>> > >>> > >>We must remember we are talkign about giving a tool for English reader > >>to connect Greek/English words. Make it simple. Only rarely we have to > >>take up a stand about syntax. > >> > >> > >> > >>> We should tag the exceptions. > >>> > >>> > >>But how? In this case (Rev 1:9), would it be best to tag "ho kai" to > >>"who also am"? It would be quite neutral about interpretion. At least > >>more neutral than tagging the article to the relative pronoun. > >> > >> > >> Sincerely Yours, > >> Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland > >> > >> > >> > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 21:10:07 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Keith Ralston) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:10:07 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You should read up on the uses and origins of the article in Greek. Dana and Mantey have a nice brief description. Robertson and Moulton have quite a bit more to say. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Eeli Kaikkonen > Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 5:05 PM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: Re: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? > > > On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Troy A. Griffitts wrote: > > > ???? ????? ????? ?? ?????????... > > ALLA TOUTO ESTIN TO EIRHMENON... > > >But< ALLA > > >this< TOUTO > > >is< ESTIN > > >that< TO > > >which_was_spoken< EIRHMENON > > > > Let me know if you'd tag it differently. > > > > "eirhmenon" = "that which was spoken". The article tells that the thing > is something specific or known. "eirhmenon" without the article tells > us all that "to eirhmenon" says except that it's something known, and we > have tagged the english definite article with the base word anyways. > > In bad English we could translate "this is _the spoken_". But because > it's bad English, it's "_that which was spoken_". Some native English > speaker can tell me if it would be right to say "this is which was > spoken" and if "that which" means different interpretation of the > article. > > Does this make sense and do I have enough knowledge to talk about > these things? > > > >hO tags "who" and "am". I have been tagging implied verbs with their > > >subjects. KAI tags "also". > > > > > >I had placed the question of implied verbs to the group. No > one responded. > > Can you make the question again with some examples (I probably missed > it)?. Now it is good time to make the consensus. I also want to make it > right, not just how I think it is right. (Right is how WE think it is > right, right?) > > Sincerely Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 21:10:07 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Keith Ralston) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:10:07 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Would six years of undergrad and graduate Greek work come close enough that I have your permission to comment? Not to mention two years of exegesis. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Eeli Kaikkonen > Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 4:27 PM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: RE: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? > > > On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: > > > I had placed the question of implied verbs to the group. No > one responded. > > In each of these cases, I am comfortable with my method for handling the > > tags. I am looking for consensus in order that we might have > consistency. > > > > Consistency is very important if we want our work to be reliable for any > use. As far as I know KJV is famous for being consistent considering > words and syntax. Readers have to know that we have consistent tagging > everywhere. > > > Myself and many others interested in the project use it for research. I > > want it tagged correctly. > > Of course. That's why I was asking in the first place :) I just meant > that usually the Greek/KJV relation is quite clear, but interpretations > about meaning and shades of syntax may vary a lot. Maybe I am talking > too much... > > > The approach taken by the KJV interpreters is > > clear. They treated the article as a pronoun. > > Still I'm not convinced. But don't take mee too seriously, I'm stubborn. > I left a note with this verse and you can contribute by telling your > opinion. > > > > Meddling with semantics would be for experts only. > > > > You keep referring to experts. What is your criteria for an expert? > > > > I can read Greek Testament, Moulton's grammar, BAGD lexicon etc. as you > have seen. I have also soon done my first Greek course in university. > Still I don't consider myself as an expert. Expert has read many books > and articles about grammar and have understood most of what they have > said. He also has access to specialized books and articles to solve > questions like this. He can speak fluently about grammar and other > things with scholarly terms. > > You have seen what kind of discussion arises when we talk about > different interpretations of syntax. If we tried to explain Greek > syntax (e.g. subject, object, predicative, relative clause, main clause) > I wouldn't be able to do that. There would be too much advanced > questions and discussion. The skills I mentioned would be needed for > that kind of things. > > But I really don't know how "expert" you all are or how many "experts" > there are amongst you. Maybe doing basic Greek grammar tagging is > possible. Subordination of words and clauses might not be too > complicated and time-consuming. > > Please notice that I'm not talking about this project here. We will have > good usable module here if we have consistent tagging and justifications > for our decisions. Tagging the grammar or something like that would take > much more effort. > > > > Sincerely Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 21:14:12 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Dave Hall) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:14:12 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] imp2vs linking problems Message-ID: <0530398ED6DBD211AC9200902745F005066E7960@goldberg.internal.clearcommerce.com> FYI, I just pulled the win32 tools from the ftp site (ftp://ftp.crosswire.org/pub/sword/utils/win32) and they fail same as the linux versions in regard to the additional linking of the last text of a book to "verses" 0:0 and 1:0 of the next book. - Dave -----Original Message----- From: Dave Hall [mailto:dhall@clearcommerce.com] Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 12:22 PM To: 'sword-devel@crosswire.org' Subject: RE: [sword-devel] imp2vs linking problems Yea, I converted the refs to Jude 1: I loaded and compiled the 1.5.5 release on linux. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Little [mailto:chrislit@crosswire.org] Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 12:29 PM To: Sword Dev (E-mail) Subject: Re: [sword-devel] imp2vs linking problems On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Dave Hall wrote: > imp2vs has verse linking problems. > > 1) It does not understand single-chapter-book refs like "Jude 20-25": Correct. This is a Sword thing, that looks like Jude chapters 20-25 (in their entirety) which apparently get's interepreted as Rev 19-26 due to normalization of the reference. You should use Jude 1:20-25. > 2) For whatever reason when it links to the last chapter of a book it then > continues to link the text to the next book refs for Next-Book 0:0 and > Next-Book 1:0 which I, as well as others (MHC), use for additional info: I thought this was fixed but I will look into it. It may have been unfixed or you might have your hands on an old binary (possibly because binaries haven't been updated recently). It's not as simple as parsekey because it must visit each verse referenced to create the link. --Chris From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 21:19:10 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Don A. Elbourne Jr.) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:19:10 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] Re: Maps, etc References: Message-ID: <00d301c2a2ed$47529ae0$a5620e44@dkv6pe0iben68t> > I think we need to move towards simply using good HTML renderers as > displays. GnomeSword & BibleTime probably already support much of the > functionality we should strive for. > > Regarding formats, we should probably support PNG, JPEG, and SVG. I don't > feel PDF is particularly well suited to this task and I don't think we > should be incorporating PDF decoders in Sword. Mozilla supports all three > natively, so incorporating Mozilla as a control would be a good move, IMO. I agree with Chris on this. I would love to see Sword be able to send valid XHTML to the front-ends. That's really the way to go. I'm coming at this from the content creation side of things, the ability to have a rich environment like Mozilla to create for would be very nice. I say "XHTML" because I think we should emphasize separating structure from style to keep the content as portable as possible. by grace alone, Don A. Elbourne Jr. http://elbourne.org From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 21:22:34 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Brian Pribis) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 14:22:34 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end References: <1039811073.12568.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3DFA4F9A.5070701@vnet-inc.com> Hey quit reading my mind! I was thinking the very same thing. Has anyone got the stuff to compile on windows outside of Borland? I tried vcpp 6 and 7 but it loses its cookies real quick like (I just tried it a couple of times and may not have things set up quite right yet)? I think wxWindows would be a good bet and would be willing to work with you (or anyone) doing a pilot to see how it goes. Maybe just getting up a reader for the bible modules with search features and then cross compiling for a few systems to see how it goes. Brian Brian Yoon wrote: >With regards to Sword for Windows, BibleTime, & GnomeSword: > >Just some questions and thoughts... > >1) Has anyone considered using a cross-platform toolkit like wxWindows >for this project so that we all can work on the same code, be able to >compile on different platforms, and still maintain the look and feel of >each respective OS? wxWindows is great and this would allow all of us >to contribute to the same project. This would eliminate the need to >re-invent the wheel for each OS. Therefore, instead of working on just >an OS X port, we could port the existing front-end to wxWindows and then >use it on all platforms. > >2) Are the goals for each of these different (ie. is one focused on just >providing a Bible study tool and another focused on providing a >full-featured Bible study and analysis tool like BibleWorks)? > >3) If someone wants to see an open source versin of a full-featured >Bible study and analysis tool like the commercial software, BibleWorks, >developed, what are the major components that are needed to be developed >(ie. databases on morphologies, parsing, etc.)? > >-Brian Yoon > > > > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 21:45:32 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (David's Mailing List and Spam Receiver) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 16:45:32 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Re: Maps, etc In-Reply-To: <00d301c2a2ed$47529ae0$a5620e44@dkv6pe0iben68t> References: <00d301c2a2ed$47529ae0$a5620e44@dkv6pe0iben68t> Message-ID: <200212131645.32396.davidslists@gmx.net> On Friday 13 December 2002 04:19 pm, Don A. Elbourne Jr. wrote: > I agree with Chris on this. I would love to see Sword be able to send valid > XHTML to the front-ends. That's really the way to go. I'm coming at this > from the content creation side of things, the ability to have a rich > environment like Mozilla to create for would be very nice. I say "XHTML" > because I think we should emphasize separating structure from style to keep > the content as portable as possible. Why not just straight xml and xslt? -- Davids Mailing List And Spam Receiver Keeping me (relatively) spam free since 2002 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 22:28:10 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Matthew Donadio) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 17:28:10 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end References: <1039811073.12568.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3DFA5EFA.229131FD@ieee.org> Brian Yoon wrote: > 1) Has anyone considered using a cross-platform toolkit like wxWindows > for this project so that we all can work on the same code, be able to > compile on different platforms, and still maintain the look and feel of > each respective OS? wxWindows is great and this would allow all of us > to contribute to the same project. This would eliminate the need to > re-invent the wheel for each OS. Therefore, instead of working on just > an OS X port, we could port the existing front-end to wxWindows and then > use it on all platforms. Do wxWindows applications behave nicely with the environment that they are running under? I think the reason for BibleTime and GnomeSword both existing is that they are specifically deigned for KDE and Gnome, respecitevely. > 3) If someone wants to see an open source versin of a full-featured > Bible study and analysis tool like the commercial software, BibleWorks, > developed, what are the major components that are needed to be developed > (ie. databases on morphologies, parsing, etc.)? IMHO, the thing that is missing is cooperation from the various commercial publishers for making their works available in a standard format. For example, I have Anchor Bible Dictionary and Expositor's Commentary on my short list of books to get. New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology and/or Kittel's books may join the list, too. They are all available electronically, but AFAIK, they are all incompatible with each other. Add to that the fact that most modern texts are locked. I don't know what to do, other than stick to physical books. -- Matthew Donadio (m.p.donadio@ieee.org) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 22:49:01 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:49:01 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end References: <1039811073.12568.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3DFA63DD.9030206@crosswire.org> Hey guys. Yep. Sven, who has recently joined the military, started a wxWindows gui dubbed 'spatha'. You can checkout the code from cvs: http://www.crosswire.org/ucgi-bin/dglassey/viewcvs.cgi/spatha/ I'm not sure how far he got before he left for the military, but it might be a place to start. -Troy. Brian Yoon wrote: > With regards to Sword for Windows, BibleTime, & GnomeSword: > > Just some questions and thoughts... > > 1) Has anyone considered using a cross-platform toolkit like wxWindows > for this project so that we all can work on the same code, be able to > compile on different platforms, and still maintain the look and feel of > each respective OS? wxWindows is great and this would allow all of us > to contribute to the same project. This would eliminate the need to > re-invent the wheel for each OS. Therefore, instead of working on just > an OS X port, we could port the existing front-end to wxWindows and then > use it on all platforms. > > 2) Are the goals for each of these different (ie. is one focused on just > providing a Bible study tool and another focused on providing a > full-featured Bible study and analysis tool like BibleWorks)? > > 3) If someone wants to see an open source versin of a full-featured > Bible study and analysis tool like the commercial software, BibleWorks, > developed, what are the major components that are needed to be developed > (ie. databases on morphologies, parsing, etc.)? > > -Brian Yoon > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 22:57:44 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 00:57:44 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: > Would six years of undergrad and graduate Greek work come close enough that > I have your permission to comment? Not to mention two years of exegesis. > Definitely yes. I never wanted to say that any of you is unreliable or that I know better. It is just that if I don't know the level of someone's knowledge I cannot trust his opinions more than mine. See, anyone can quote some books like I do and give justifications for his views according to the knowledge he has. Some people just have more knowledge than I. Now we know my level and yours. It's a pleasure to see that at least one person here (and probably more) has more expertise than I have. This is not about boasting of one's skills or anything like that. I just think that knowing each others background helps us in giving credit to good thoughts and being sceptical in a healthy way. In scholarly word everyone has a title and a bibliography. That's how we value them. Hopefully not because we look at manly wisdom more than divine wisdom, but because it is a way to see how much one might know. Moreover, I didn't want to sound like I despise someone's comments. My thinking is very analytical and I love to understand a new thing by heart and head more than just take someone's word for it. That's why I insisted justifications. I don't take anyone's authority for granted. I have been trying to digest the new information you and the others have given to me. Hope this cleared the air. Sorry if I have been stretching your nerves. Now when I think about my previous postings I well might have sounded like I keep my opinions better than of others. Sometimes it even may be true - I'm far from perfect. Please forgive me. Gal 5:15 Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 23:08:21 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 01:08:21 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end In-Reply-To: <3DFA5EFA.229131FD@ieee.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Matthew Donadio wrote: > > Do wxWindows applications behave nicely with the environment that they > are running under? I think the reason for BibleTime and GnomeSword both > existing is that they are specifically deigned for KDE and Gnome, > respecitevely. > In Linux world it seems to be impossible to get everyone behind one project. Each widged set and desktop environment have it's own pros and cons. In this case different text encodings is important. Does wxwindows handle unicode, bi-di etc.? > IMHO, the thing that is missing is cooperation from the various > commercial publishers for making their works available in a standard > format. For example, I have Anchor Bible Dictionary and Expositor's > Commentary on my short list of books to get. New International > Dictionary of New Testament Theology and/or Kittel's books may join the > list, too. They are all available electronically, but AFAIK, they are > all incompatible with each other. Add to that the fact that most modern > texts are locked. I don't know what to do, other than stick to physical > books. The future of a binary proprietary format is always uncertain. I wouldn't by an expensive book if I wasn't sure I can read it after 10 years. A Bible reading program you have now probably won't work after 5 years on your updated computer and OS. Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 14 05:03:44 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Keith Ralston) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 23:03:44 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I don't take anyone's authority for granted. Neither should any of us. Asking for references is the best idea. We should all be able to back up our claims with research. >I'm far from perfect. Please forgive me. As is everyone else on the project. Let's just make sure we treat one another with grace and respect. Phil. 2:3 Keith From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 14 05:15:55 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Keith Ralston) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 23:15:55 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end In-Reply-To: <1039811073.12568.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Sounds like a great Java project, ;-) > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Brian Yoon > Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 2:24 PM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end > > > With regards to Sword for Windows, BibleTime, & GnomeSword: > > Just some questions and thoughts... > > 1) Has anyone considered using a cross-platform toolkit like wxWindows > for this project so that we all can work on the same code, be able to > compile on different platforms, and still maintain the look and feel of > each respective OS? wxWindows is great and this would allow all of us > to contribute to the same project. This would eliminate the need to > re-invent the wheel for each OS. Therefore, instead of working on just > an OS X port, we could port the existing front-end to wxWindows and then > use it on all platforms. > > 2) Are the goals for each of these different (ie. is one focused on just > providing a Bible study tool and another focused on providing a > full-featured Bible study and analysis tool like BibleWorks)? > > 3) If someone wants to see an open source versin of a full-featured > Bible study and analysis tool like the commercial software, BibleWorks, > developed, what are the major components that are needed to be developed > (ie. databases on morphologies, parsing, etc.)? > > -Brian Yoon > > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 14 09:24:55 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 11:24:55 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: > Sounds like a great Java project, ;-) And we already have a good start in form of well-organized, over-engineered ModEdit ;) :) > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Brian Yoon > > Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 2:24 PM > > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > > Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end > > > > > > With regards to Sword for Windows, BibleTime, & GnomeSword: > > > > Just some questions and thoughts... > > > > 1) Has anyone considered using a cross-platform toolkit like wxWindows > > for this project so that we all can work on the same code, be able to > > compile on different platforms, and still maintain the look and feel of > > each respective OS? wxWindows is great and this would allow all of us > > to contribute to the same project. This would eliminate the need to > > re-invent the wheel for each OS. Therefore, instead of working on just > > an OS X port, we could port the existing front-end to wxWindows and then > > use it on all platforms. > > > > 2) Are the goals for each of these different (ie. is one focused on just > > providing a Bible study tool and another focused on providing a > > full-featured Bible study and analysis tool like BibleWorks)? > > > > 3) If someone wants to see an open source versin of a full-featured > > Bible study and analysis tool like the commercial software, BibleWorks, > > developed, what are the major components that are needed to be developed > > (ie. databases on morphologies, parsing, etc.)? > > > > -Brian Yoon > > > > > > > Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 14 09:54:30 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 11:54:30 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: > You should read up on the uses and origins of the article in Greek. Dana > and Mantey have a nice brief description. Robertson and Moulton have quite > a bit more to say. > I try to read some Moulton one of these days. Until then it would be good to have some more examples about tagging. When to tag like Troy tagged here and when not to tag the article? Is it just about English relative pronoun? And to continue our endless conversation: NKJV translates Acts 2:16 as "this is what was spoken". Here "what was spoken" can clearly be "eirhmenon" and there is no relative pronoun. Just like in Rev 1:9. Is it really possible that the translators of KJV and NKJV had different views about usage of the article? Or did the translators of KJV choose an English idiom which NKJV translators changed to a more neutral? Or do I get English wrong here? > > > > On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Troy A. Griffitts wrote: > > > > > ???? ????? ????? ?? ?????????... > > > ALLA TOUTO ESTIN TO EIRHMENON... > > > >But< ALLA > > > >this< TOUTO > > > >is< ESTIN > > > >that< TO > > > >which_was_spoken< EIRHMENON > > > > > > Let me know if you'd tag it differently. Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 14 10:21:43 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 03:21:43 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end References: Message-ID: <3DFB0637.40505@crosswire.org> Actually, we have 2 flavours of Java SWORD these days. We've gained an independent project: Project B, that has decided to join our efforts and has been relabeled: jsword, and we have our our older attempt at a class by class port of the sword libraries that our website uses, now renamed jsword-old. They are both still developed but one day may become one project. -Troy. you can view the jsword page at: http://www.crosswire.org/jsword and view the code from either one in our cvs repository or viewcvs at: http://www.crosswire.org/ucgi-bin/dglassey/viewcvs.cgi ModEdit still uses the C++ engine, though it seems to work quite nice and might be advantagious for certain tasks like searching. -Troy. Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: > > >>Sounds like a great Java project, ;-) > > > And we already have a good start in form of well-organized, > over-engineered ModEdit ;) :) > > > >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org >>>[mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Brian Yoon >>>Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 2:24 PM >>>To: sword-devel@crosswire.org >>>Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end >>> >>> >>>With regards to Sword for Windows, BibleTime, & GnomeSword: >>> >>>Just some questions and thoughts... >>> >>>1) Has anyone considered using a cross-platform toolkit like wxWindows >>>for this project so that we all can work on the same code, be able to >>>compile on different platforms, and still maintain the look and feel of >>>each respective OS? wxWindows is great and this would allow all of us >>>to contribute to the same project. This would eliminate the need to >>>re-invent the wheel for each OS. Therefore, instead of working on just >>>an OS X port, we could port the existing front-end to wxWindows and then >>>use it on all platforms. >>> >>>2) Are the goals for each of these different (ie. is one focused on just >>>providing a Bible study tool and another focused on providing a >>>full-featured Bible study and analysis tool like BibleWorks)? >>> >>>3) If someone wants to see an open source versin of a full-featured >>>Bible study and analysis tool like the commercial software, BibleWorks, >>>developed, what are the major components that are needed to be developed >>>(ie. databases on morphologies, parsing, etc.)? >>> >>>-Brian Yoon >>> >>> >>> >> > > Sincerely Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 14 14:19:45 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Joachim Ansorg) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 15:19:45 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end In-Reply-To: <3DFB0637.40505@crosswire.org> References: <3DFB0637.40505@crosswire.org> Message-ID: <200212141519.45899.joachim@ansorgs.de> We have three types of Java support :) The Swig bindings can be used to create Java-classes to work with Sword usig Java. Joachim > Actually, we have 2 flavours of Java SWORD these days. We've gained an > independent project: Project B, that has decided to join our efforts and > has been relabeled: jsword, and we have our our older attempt at a class > by class port of the sword libraries that our website uses, now renamed > jsword-old. They are both still developed but one day may become one > project. > > -Troy. > > you can view the jsword page at: > > http://www.crosswire.org/jsword > > and view the code from either one in our cvs repository or viewcvs at: > > http://www.crosswire.org/ucgi-bin/dglassey/viewcvs.cgi > > > ModEdit still uses the C++ engine, though it seems to work quite nice > and might be advantagious for certain tasks like searching. > > -Troy. > > Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > > On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: > >>Sounds like a great Java project, ;-) > > > > And we already have a good start in form of well-organized, > > over-engineered ModEdit ;) :) > > > >>>-----Original Message----- > >>>From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > >>>[mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Brian Yoon > >>>Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 2:24 PM > >>>To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > >>>Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end > >>> > >>> > >>>With regards to Sword for Windows, BibleTime, & GnomeSword: > >>> > >>>Just some questions and thoughts... > >>> > >>>1) Has anyone considered using a cross-platform toolkit like wxWindows > >>>for this project so that we all can work on the same code, be able to > >>>compile on different platforms, and still maintain the look and feel of > >>>each respective OS? wxWindows is great and this would allow all of us > >>>to contribute to the same project. This would eliminate the need to > >>>re-invent the wheel for each OS. Therefore, instead of working on just > >>>an OS X port, we could port the existing front-end to wxWindows and then > >>>use it on all platforms. > >>> > >>>2) Are the goals for each of these different (ie. is one focused on just > >>>providing a Bible study tool and another focused on providing a > >>>full-featured Bible study and analysis tool like BibleWorks)? > >>> > >>>3) If someone wants to see an open source versin of a full-featured > >>>Bible study and analysis tool like the commercial software, BibleWorks, > >>>developed, what are the major components that are needed to be developed > >>>(ie. databases on morphologies, parsing, etc.)? > >>> > >>>-Brian Yoon > > > > Sincerely Yours, > > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland -- Joachim Ansorg www.bibletime.de www.ansorgs.de From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 14 14:36:24 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Don A. Elbourne Jr.) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 08:36:24 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] Bible Software Google Search Message-ID: <002b01c2a37e$2dcc5d90$a5620e44@dkv6pe0iben68t> I was just curious how Crosswire would fair on a Google search for "Bible Software." Here are the results: 1. Logos 2. Theophilos 3. SwordSearcher 4. e-Sword 5. Online Bible 6. Olive Tree 7. FreeBible.com 8. BibleWorks 9. Crosswire 10. OLB on the CCEL site In the top ten front page of google is not bad. by grace alone, Don A. Elbourne Jr. http://elbourne.org From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 14 15:37:02 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Hugo van der Kooij) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 16:37:02 +0100 (CET) Subject: [sword-devel] Bible Software Google Search In-Reply-To: <002b01c2a37e$2dcc5d90$a5620e44@dkv6pe0iben68t> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Dec 2002, Don A. Elbourne Jr. wrote: > I was just curious how Crosswire would fair on a Google search for "Bible > Software." The pages have the required tags but .... they fail the W3C validator. Take a look at http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.crosswire.org/sword/index.jsp for example. It shows there are some minor issues but also some odd issues that will result in odd results like starting list entries without starting a list. How can we work on increasing the W3C compliance of the website? Hugo -- All email sent to me is bound to the rules described on my homepage. hvdkooij@vanderkooij.org http://hvdkooij.xs4all.nl/ Don't meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are subtle and quick to anger. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 14 16:58:20 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Don A. Elbourne Jr.) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 10:58:20 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] Bible Software Google Search References: Message-ID: <004801c2a392$01d78750$a5620e44@dkv6pe0iben68t> Does non-valid HTML effect the Google ranking or are you raising a different issue? We do need to make it valid HTML. Some of the mistakes might be mine, some were introduced between the time the template left my hands and reached the server. Most seem to be created by the dynamically inserted stuff. I will try to go through and see where all the problems are coming from and see if we can get that all cleaned up. by grace alone, Don A. Elbourne Jr. http://elbourne.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hugo van der Kooij" To: Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Bible Software Google Search > On Sat, 14 Dec 2002, Don A. Elbourne Jr. wrote: > > > I was just curious how Crosswire would fair on a Google search for "Bible > > Software." > > The pages have the required tags but .... they fail the W3C validator. > > Take a look at > http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.crosswire.org/sword/index.jsp > for example. > > It shows there are some minor issues but also some odd issues that will > result in odd results like starting list entries without starting a list. > > How can we work on increasing the W3C compliance of the website? > > Hugo > > -- > All email sent to me is bound to the rules described on my homepage. > hvdkooij@vanderkooij.org http://hvdkooij.xs4all.nl/ > Don't meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, > for they are subtle and quick to anger. > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 14 18:25:28 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Joachim Ansorg) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 19:25:28 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] Mem leak in Sword Message-ID: <200212141924.05070.joachim@ansorgs.de> --------------Boundary-00=_GIG412S7T1IGGVR74LEW Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Troy, I was working on BibleTime's parallel display of more than one lexicon, w= hich=20 displays only the keys which are in all selected modules. Please have a look at the following test program, to go though WebstersDi= ct it=20 uses almost 400MB of Ram. I think it's a mem leak. Am I doing something wrong or is it really a bug in Sword? I'm not sure if it only happens with WebstersDict. Joachim --=20 Joachim Ansorg www.bibletime.de www.ansorgs.de --------------Boundary-00=_GIG412S7T1IGGVR74LEW Content-Type: text/x-c++src; charset="iso-8859-15"; name="test-sword.cpp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="test-sword.cpp" #include #include #include using namespace std; using namespace sword; int main (int argc, char* argv[]) { SWMgr mgr; SWModule* mod = mgr.Modules["WebstersDict"]; (*mod) = TOP; //first entry do { cout << mod->KeyText() << endl; (*mod)++; } while ( !mod->Error() ); (*mod) = TOP; //back to first entry }; --------------Boundary-00=_GIG412S7T1IGGVR74LEW-- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 14 20:54:25 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 13:54:25 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Mem leak in Sword References: <200212141924.05070.joachim@ansorgs.de> Message-ID: <3DFB9A81.2090602@crosswire.org> Joachim, Your test program looks perfectly valid. I'll have a look at the code. I added a new interface: SWCacher, that many classes, especially most of the drivers, implement now. It gives standard functions to clear any cached data they are holding. It was originally added out of the need for SWORD to have a SMALLER memory consumption for handheld devices, but maybe I screwed something up :) The concept isn't all complete yet. Eventually, I'm hoping to have a CacheMgr that we can add any SWCacher implementor objects to, and it will take care of flushing the oldest accessed caches and be tunable. I'll keep ya posted on what I find out. -Troy. Joachim Ansorg wrote: > Troy, > > I was working on BibleTime's parallel display of more than one lexicon, which > displays only the keys which are in all selected modules. > > Please have a look at the following test program, to go though WebstersDict it > uses almost 400MB of Ram. I think it's a mem leak. > > Am I doing something wrong or is it really a bug in Sword? > I'm not sure if it only happens with WebstersDict. > > Joachim > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > #include > #include > > #include > > using namespace std; > using namespace sword; > > int main (int argc, char* argv[]) { > SWMgr mgr; > SWModule* mod = mgr.Modules["WebstersDict"]; > > (*mod) = TOP; //first entry > > do { > cout << mod->KeyText() << endl; > (*mod)++; > } while ( !mod->Error() ); > > (*mod) = TOP; //back to first entry > > }; From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 15 00:43:16 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Brook Humphrey) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 16:43:16 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end In-Reply-To: <3DFA5EFA.229131FD@ieee.org> References: <1039811073.12568.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <3DFA5EFA.229131FD@ieee.org> Message-ID: <200212141643.16205.bah@webmedic.net> On Friday 13 December 2002 02:28 pm, Matthew Donadio wrote: > Brian Yoon wrote: > > 1) Has anyone considered using a cross-platform toolkit like wxWindows > > for this project so that we all can work on the same code, be able to > > compile on different platforms, and still maintain the look and feel of > > each respective OS? wxWindows is great and this would allow all of us > > to contribute to the same project. This would eliminate the need to > > re-invent the wheel for each OS. Therefore, instead of working on just > > an OS X port, we could port the existing front-end to wxWindows and then > > use it on all platforms. > > Do wxWindows applications behave nicely with the environment that they > are running under? I think the reason for BibleTime and GnomeSword both > existing is that they are specifically deigned for KDE and Gnome, > respecitevely. > A good example of the is audacity. It's a project on sourceforge and uses wxwindows. It runs on linux windows and macos. and it looks the same on all of them. I might add it works well as Iuse it for allot of my audio needs. -- -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- Brook Humphrey Mobile PC Medic, 420 1st, Cheney, WA 99004, 509-235-9107 http://www.webmedic.net, bah@webmedic.net, bah@linux-mandrake.com Holiness unto the Lord -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 15 01:58:52 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (David's Mailing List and Spam Receiver) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 20:58:52 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end In-Reply-To: <200212141643.16205.bah@webmedic.net> References: <1039811073.12568.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <3DFA5EFA.229131FD@ieee.org> <200212141643.16205.bah@webmedic.net> Message-ID: <200212142058.53302.davidslists@gmx.net> On Saturday 14 December 2002 07:43 pm, Brook Humphrey wrote: > A good example of the is audacity. It's a project on sourceforge and uses > wxwindows. It runs on linux windows and macos. and it looks the same on all > of them. I might add it works well as Iuse it for allot of my audio needs. If this is what I'm thinking of it's also a drop-in audio library. It had problems in win98se playing audio though. I don't know if those have been fixed. Oh, and I know the guy that writes it (well online anyway) -- Davids Mailing List And Spam Receiver Keeping me (relatively) spam free since 2002 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 11 22:36:06 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 03:36:06 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Gtk-1.2: Greek text on buttons Message-ID: In Gtk-1.2 I want Greek text on a button. Can I use an iso10646-1 font (How? Setting a UTF-8 string produces a mess.) or need to use a Greek font? Example? -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 15 11:15:14 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 04:15:14 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Gtk-1.2: Greek text on buttons References: Message-ID: <3DFC6442.4060806@crosswire.org> Victor, Here's a log from #gnome In gtk+ 1.2.x, when setting text to a label, the text is defined in the doc as a gchar * which, according to the doc is typedef'd to a char * so... is there a way to set multibyte text on a label in 1.2? or do I have to use a strange 255 character encoding? like if I want greek text on a button? You have to use the user's locale encoding. but if I'm writing a translation package from greek to english... then how do I get greek and english on the same form? Well English is ASCII. And most locale encodings are ASCII compatible. ok, so they'd be in like the upper bytes? Yes. ok, thanks. but really, how would I do something like hebrew and greek? scribe: May I ask why you don't use GTK+ 2.0? there has to be a way to specify stuff like that. right in 2.0 I can use unicode right? yes UTF-8 scribe: Go for 2.0. It'll avoid much hassle. thank you very much danielk. So, in short. 1.2 uses older single byte encodings defined by the user's locale, and 2.0 uses utf8, right? Yes. so in 1.2 there is no way to display a range of different encodings in the same app? Well you can use Unicode in 1.2 AFAIK, but it's a mess. Very few apps get it right. ah. The only one I know of is Evolution. ok, thanks for the info. You've been great! np porton@narod.ru wrote: > In Gtk-1.2 I want Greek text on a button. > > Can I use an iso10646-1 font (How? Setting a UTF-8 string produces a mess.) or > need to use a Greek font? > > Example? From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 15 17:03:12 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Martin Gruner) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 18:03:12 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] wiki reanimated !! Message-ID: <200212151803.12483.mg.pub@gmx.net> Hey all, I am so happy to tell you that with the help of a 2-weeks old backup available from sf I was able to restore the wiki, which was hacked and deleted a few days ago. (http://sword.sf.net/wiki). Nevertheless, I suggest that it be moved to crosswire asap to avoid things like this in future. Martin From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 18 02:41:46 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 07:41:46 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Bible Variants released Message-ID: I released Bible Variants 0.1 (alpha but already usable): program allowing to view and select different Original Bible (for now only New Testament) translation variants. It is GTK+ 2 (for now tested only with Linux, but may work with other systems). See http://clean-bible.sf.net/ . I also updated the site http://clean-bible.sf.net/ . Now it contains a FAQ. There was too many GREAT misunderstandings of my concept of clean Bible without vowels/accents. So the FAQ is a must read. Subscribe to clean-bible-theology@lists.sf.net for discussion about this and announcements of the related software. Now all discussions on our topic in this list. I suggest to not post several days as you need to wait when others will subscribe. Special note for Martin Gruner: You promised to use my software to check. Now you can download and experiment with it (however I haven't yet provided any examples...). List-Subscribe: , Anyone of holy warriors wanting to join development? -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 17 19:10:09 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Jonathan Hughes) Date: 17 Dec 2002 19:10:09 +0000 Subject: [sword-devel] Software Solution for Taking Payments and Sending Out an Unlock Key! Message-ID: <1040152210.32038.168.camel@jhughes> --=-lZ9Emhl9cnFFbTqSpWXx Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Guys, I got an e-mail today from a publisher that was interested in distributing their work for use with The SWORD Project. When I send them our permission request letter I give the following four options: 1) We offer your translations for free download with no restrictions.=20 As we exist as a ministry, this is the most desired option. 2) We offer your translations free for personal use, or with other restrictions in the copyright notice. 3) We offer your translations encrypted and CrossWire or you can give out the unlock code. 4) We give you the modules that work with our software and you can offer it from your site under whatever terms you desire. Here is where I need some pointers from you guys. CrossWire does not want to be involved in the financial matters of exchanging money for modules so we only offer to have the publisher setup a way to take the money and send out an unlock code (most likely via e-mail) and we host the module. However the publisher that I got an e-mail from today would like to know how to setup the mechanism to send out unlock keys upon receiving the fee. I would like to be able to at least give them some ideas of where to start, what software solutions might be of use to them. Whether these solutions are just software that they can buy and use or is a service that they can pay for. So what are people's ideas? A solution for these publishers, remember many of the publishers that do not know how to setup something like this are small publishers so they don't have a big budget. Thanks for any tips people have. In Christ, Jonathan Copyright Coordinator --=-lZ9Emhl9cnFFbTqSpWXx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQA9/3aQDuJ/4YoVjMIRAmvDAJ9VIilIXc3B1UX5V8JebxubB32WKwCdGFZe zW3FUo6PdGKQvkJPSztjLNQ= =pN4X -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-lZ9Emhl9cnFFbTqSpWXx-- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 18 04:15:48 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Rev. Michael Paul Johnson) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 14:15:48 +1000 Subject: [sword-devel] Software Solution for Taking Payments and Sending O ut an Unlock Key! In-Reply-To: <1040152210.32038.168.camel@jhughes> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021218141248.020046f0@mail.sil.org.pg> --=====================_14470447==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:10 18-12-02 +1000, you wrote: >Hey Guys, > > I got an e-mail today from a publisher that was interested in >distributing their work for use with The SWORD Project. When I send them >our permission request letter I give the following four options: > >1) We offer your translations for free download with no restrictions. >As we exist as a ministry, this is the most desired option. >2) We offer your translations free for personal use, or with other >restrictions in the copyright notice. >3) We offer your translations encrypted and CrossWire or you can give >out the unlock code. >4) We give you the modules that work with our software and you can offer >it from your site under whatever terms you desire. > > Here is where I need some pointers from you guys. CrossWire does >not >want to be involved in the financial matters of exchanging money for >modules so we only offer to have the publisher setup a way to take the >money and send out an unlock code (most likely via e-mail) and we host >the module. However the publisher that I got an e-mail from today would >like to know how to setup the mechanism to send out unlock keys upon >receiving the fee. I would like to be able to at least give them some >ideas of where to start, what software solutions might be of use to >them. Whether these solutions are just software that they can buy and >use or is a service that they can pay for. So what are people's ideas? A >solution for these publishers, remember many of the publishers that do >not know how to setup something like this are small publishers so they >don't have a big budget. Thanks for any tips people have. Probably the cheapest way to do this is with a web form set up to solicit a payment from PayPal. Once the salesperson verifies the payment, he or she can email the unlock code. I did that for a while for paper copies of the World English Bible NT+PP. I don't do that any more. You get a free download or buy the book from a bookstore. Rev. Michael Paul Johnson Servant of Jesus Christ mpj@eBible.org http://eBible.org/mpj/ --=====================_14470447==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 05:10 18-12-02 +1000, you wrote:

Hey Guys,

I got an e-mail today from a publisher that was interested in
distributing their work for use with The SWORD Project. When I send them
our permission request letter I give the following four options:

1) We offer your translations for free download with no restrictions.
As we exist as a ministry, this is the most desired option.
2) We offer your translations free for personal use, or with other
restrictions in the copyright notice.
3) We offer your translations encrypted and CrossWire or you can give
out the unlock code.
4) We give you the modules that work with our software and you can offer
it from your site under whatever terms you desire.

Here is where I need some pointers from you guys. CrossWire does
not
want to be involved in the financial matters of exchanging money for
modules so we only offer to have the publisher setup a way to take the
money and send out an unlock code (most likely via e-mail) and we host
the module. However the publisher that I got an e-mail from today would
like to know how to setup the mechanism to send out unlock keys upon
receiving the fee. I would like to be able to at least give them some
ideas of where to start, what software solutions might be of use to
them. Whether these solutions are just software that they can buy and
use or is a service that they can pay for. So what are people's ideas? A
solution for these publishers, remember many of the publishers that do
not know how to setup something like this are small publishers so they
don't have a big budget. Thanks for any tips people have.

Probably the cheapest way to do this is with a web form set up to solicit a payment from PayPal. Once the salesperson verifies the payment, he or she can email the unlock code. I did that for a while for paper copies of the World English Bible NT+PP. I don't do that any more. You get a free download or buy the book from a bookstore.

Rev. Michael Paul Johnson
Servant of Jesus Christ
mpj@eBible.org
http://eBible.org/mpj/
--=====================_14470447==_.ALT-- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 18 05:48:49 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Rev. Michael Paul Johnson) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 15:48:49 +1000 Subject: [sword-devel] Copyright info plus corrections for Tok Pisin/Melanesian Pidgin Bible for PNG In-Reply-To: <1040152210.32038.168.camel@jhughes> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021218141557.04d1e5d0@mail.sil.org.pg> --=====================_20067145==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hey Jonathan: The Tok Pisin module on the Sword Project web site says that copyright information is unknown. I now make it known. Papua New Guinea now (since June) has a copyright law. It is likely that they will join a treaty convention which makes PNG copyrights enforceable in the USA and vice versa within a year. Therefore, it would be wise to ask permission to redistribute this text for free before that happens. The address of the copyright owner is: Bible Society of Papua New Guinea Box 335 Port Moresby, NCD Papua New Guinea I recommend asking in English, as most people in Port Moresby speak (British) English. The Tok Pisin text I downloaded from Crosswire.org had some rather strange quote mark notations. I corrected many quotation mark problems and some mismarked verse bridges, converted it to GBF (so that I could easily convert it also to HTML and some other formats for local use), and uploaded it to ftp://ebible.org/pub/new/tokpisingbf.zip for your use. I assume that you can quickly and automatically convert it back to RAW format or use it directly, as you do for the World English Bible and the HNV. Rev. Michael Paul Johnson Servant of Jesus Christ mpj@eBible.org http://eBible.org/mpj/ --=====================_20067145==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Hey Jonathan:

The Tok Pisin module on the Sword Project web site says that copyright information is unknown. I now make it known.

Papua New Guinea now (since June) has a copyright law. It is likely that they will join a treaty convention which makes PNG copyrights enforceable in the USA and vice versa within a year. Therefore, it would be wise to ask permission to redistribute this text for free before that happens. The address of the copyright owner is:

Bible Society of Papua New Guinea
Box 335
Port Moresby, NCD
Papua New Guinea

I recommend asking in English, as most people in Port Moresby speak (British) English.

The Tok Pisin text I downloaded from Crosswire.org had some rather strange quote mark notations. I corrected many quotation mark problems and some mismarked verse bridges, converted it to GBF (so that I could easily convert it also to HTML and some other formats for local use), and uploaded it to ftp://ebible.org/pub/new/tokpisingbf.zip for your use. I assume that you can quickly and automatically convert it back to RAW format or use it directly, as you do for the World English Bible and the HNV.

Rev. Michael Paul Johnson
Servant of Jesus Christ
mpj@eBible.org
http://eBible.org/mpj/
--=====================_20067145==_.ALT-- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 18 10:27:16 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Chris Little) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 03:27:16 -0700 (MST) Subject: [sword-devel] Copyright info plus corrections for Tok Pisin/Melanesian Pidgin Bible for PNG In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021218141557.04d1e5d0@mail.sil.org.pg> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, Rev. Michael Paul Johnson wrote: > The Tok Pisin text I downloaded from Crosswire.org had some rather > strange quote mark notations. I corrected many quotation mark problems > and some mismarked verse bridges, converted it to GBF (so that I could > easily convert it also to HTML and some other formats for local use), > and uploaded it to ftp://ebible.org/pub/new/tokpisingbf.zip for your > use. I assume that you can quickly and automatically convert it back to > RAW format or use it directly, as you do for the World English Bible and > the HNV. Would it be possible for you to post an SFM version too (if it's not too much trouble). I've been working on SFM to OSIS tools using your WEB SFM text and wouldn't mind just using that as a source format. We're going to have so much stuff in OSIS format quite soon that it will be necessary for us to write OSIS to HTML/ThML/RTF/... filters for Sword anyway. Your SFM materials are a lot nicer (more tame) to work with than some of the stuff I've seen lately. :) --Chris From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 18 12:03:28 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Pham, Khoi) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 06:03:28 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] Apocrypha book Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2A68D.79F05B94 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Recently, there are many people who are interested in reading Apocrypha books. I also Apocrypha book in the DRA module in the SWORD program. How can we readit? Thanks ****************Internet Email Confidentiality Footer****************** Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message and notify the sender by reply email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer do not consent to Internet email for messages of this kind. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of The Shaw Group Inc. or its subsidiaries shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it. _______________________________________________________________________ The Shaw Group Inc. http://www.shawgrp.com ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2A68D.79F05B94 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Recently, there are many people who are interested in reading Apocrypha books. I = also Apocrypha book in the DRA module in the SWORD program. How can we readit?

Thanks

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2A68D.79F05B94-- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 18 21:48:37 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Rev. Michael Paul Johnson) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 07:48:37 +1000 Subject: [sword-devel] Copyright info plus corrections for Tok Pisin/Melanesian Pidgin Bible for PNG In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021218141557.04d1e5d0@mail.sil.org.pg> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021219074140.01fd7148@mail.sil.org.pg> --=====================_78120220==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:27 18-12-02 -0700, Chris Little wrote: >On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, Rev. Michael Paul Johnson wrote: > >> The Tok Pisin text I downloaded from Crosswire.org had some rather >> strange quote mark notations. I corrected many quotation mark problems >> and some mismarked verse bridges, converted it to GBF (so that I could >> easily convert it also to HTML and some other formats for local use), >> and uploaded it to ftp://ebible.org/pub/new/tokpisingbf.zip for your >> use. I assume that you can quickly and automatically convert it back to >> RAW format or use it directly, as you do for the World English Bible and >> the HNV. > >Would it be possible for you to post an SFM version too (if it's not too >much trouble). I've been working on SFM to OSIS tools using your WEB >SFM text and wouldn't mind just using that as a source format. We're >going to have so much stuff in OSIS format quite soon that it will be >necessary for us to write OSIS to HTML/ThML/RTF/... filters for Sword >anyway. > >Your SFM materials are a lot nicer (more tame) to work with than some of >the stuff I've seen lately. :) Sure: ftp://eBible.org/pub/new/tokpisinsf.zip has a copy of it (or at least it will once the upload I just started finished). I'm not confident that verse bridges are handled correctly in this copy, as they look like one or more empty verse followed by a really long verse. For example, Ezekiel 48:30-34 is translated as a unit, so any references to Ezekiel Ezekiel 48:30 should bring up the text in Ezekiel 48:34. Maybe this should be marked as \v 30-34 Bikpela... instead. Rev. Michael Paul Johnson Servant of Jesus Christ mpj@eBible.org http://eBible.org/mpj/ --=====================_78120220==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 03:27 18-12-02 -0700, Chris Little wrote:

On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, Rev. Michael Paul Johnson wrote:

> The Tok Pisin text I downloaded from Crosswire.org had some rather
> strange quote mark notations. I corrected many quotation mark problems
> and some mismarked verse bridges, converted it to GBF (so that I could
> easily convert it also to HTML and some other formats for local use),
> and uploaded it to ftp://ebible.org/pub/new/tokpisingbf.zip for your
> use. I assume that you can quickly and automatically convert it back to
> RAW format or use it directly, as you do for the World English Bible and
> the HNV.

Would it be possible for you to post an SFM version too (if it's not too
much trouble). I've been working on SFM to OSIS tools using your WEB
SFM text and wouldn't mind just using that as a source format. We're
going to have so much stuff in OSIS format quite soon that it will be
necessary for us to write OSIS to HTML/ThML/RTF/... filters for Sword
anyway.

Your SFM materials are a lot nicer (more tame) to work with than some of
the stuff I've seen lately. :)

Sure: ftp://eBible.org/pub/new/tokpisinsf.zip has a copy of it (or at least it will once the upload I just started finished). I'm not confident that verse bridges are handled correctly in this copy, as they look like one or more empty verse followed by a really long verse. For example, Ezekiel 48:30-34 is translated as a unit, so any references to Ezekiel Ezekiel 48:30 should bring up the text in Ezekiel 48:34. Maybe this should be marked as
\v 30-34 Bikpela...
instead.

Rev. Michael Paul Johnson
Servant of Jesus Christ
mpj@eBible.org
http://eBible.org/mpj/
--=====================_78120220==_.ALT-- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 19 13:30:52 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Don A. Elbourne Jr.) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 07:30:52 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] The Sword Website References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021218141557.04d1e5d0@mail.sil.org.pg> <5.1.0.14.2.20021219074140.01fd7148@mail.sil.org.pg> Message-ID: <005d01c2a762$d9edf740$a5620e44@dkv6pe0iben68t> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C2A730.8F2FD2A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are a lot of problems with the Sword Website. It has a lot of = validation issues as well as incorrect use of HTML. For example

There are a lot of problems with the = Sword Website.=20 It has a lot of validation issues as well as incorrect use of HTML. For = example=20 <ul><ul> is used extensively on the site for indenting text = instead=20 of "Unordered Lists" that the tag is for, and it is absent in some of = the places=20 that it should be. If I could get access to the jsp and = source files that=20 generate the site, I'd be glad to try to clean it up.

by grace alone,

Don A. Elbourne Jr.
http://elbourne.org

by grace alone,

Don A. Elbourne Jr.
http://elbourne.org

How about "The Best of Martin Luther":) -----Original Message----- From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Joachim Ansorg Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 7:10 AM To: sword-devel@crosswire.org Subject: [sword-devel] two new german beta modules I added two new modules in the Beta section: -Book: Quran_de: The Quran in German. Only for testing, shouldn't be ever released as public module. -Book: Lutherpredigten_de: A collection of almost 60 sermons of Luther. Please test the modules so the luther sermons module can be put into the public section. Does somebody have a better name for it? BTW, the page which lists the beta module types does not display the books. Could this be updated, please. Thanks, Joachim -- Joachim Ansorg www.bibletime.de www.ansorgs.de From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 20 18:04:31 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Glassey) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 18:04:31 -0000 Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end In-Reply-To: <3DFA4F9A.5070701@vnet-inc.com> Message-ID: <3E035BAF.12257.4BA7EF6@localhost> Hi guys, I was supposed to take over from Sven on the wxWindows port (spatha) but haven't done a good job of it. Unfortunately I never got the hang of his vision for it and his ideas for supporting base classes which was basically about as far as we got before he had to go. If you'd be interested and would have the drive for it to design and implement the GUI I can help with the integration with sword library parts - you guys up for it? Note that having a cross-platform frontend still doesn't remove the use of platform specific ones - especially things like gnome, kde and macosx specific - they can be more integrated than a xp one can be. Regards, Daniel On 13 Dec 2002 at 14:22, Brian Pribis sent forth the message: > Hey quit reading my mind! I was thinking the very same thing. Has > anyone got the stuff to compile on windows outside of Borland? I tried > vcpp 6 and 7 but it loses its cookies real quick like (I just tried it a > couple of times and may not have things set up quite right yet)? I > think wxWindows would be a good bet and would be willing to work with > you (or anyone) doing a pilot to see how it goes. Maybe just getting up > a reader for the bible modules with search features and then cross > compiling for a few systems to see how it goes. > > Brian > > > Brian Yoon wrote: > > >With regards to Sword for Windows, BibleTime, & GnomeSword: > > > >Just some questions and thoughts... > > > >1) Has anyone considered using a cross-platform toolkit like wxWindows > >for this project so that we all can work on the same code, be able to > >compile on different platforms, and still maintain the look and feel of > >each respective OS? wxWindows is great and this would allow all of us > >to contribute to the same project. This would eliminate the need to > >re-invent the wheel for each OS. Therefore, instead of working on just > >an OS X port, we could port the existing front-end to wxWindows and then > >use it on all platforms. > > > >2) Are the goals for each of these different (ie. is one focused on just > >providing a Bible study tool and another focused on providing a > >full-featured Bible study and analysis tool like BibleWorks)? > >3) If someone wants to see an open source versin of a full-featured > >Bible study and analysis tool like the commercial software, BibleWorks, > >developed, what are the major components that are needed to be developed > >(ie. databases on morphologies, parsing, etc.)? > > > >-Brian Yoon From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 20 19:46:15 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Lisa Stapp) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:46:15 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] two new german beta modules References: Message-ID: <006d01c2a860$76a903b0$1e81b4ce@LISA> ... this is going to be one large file to download! Luther said an awful lot! Lisa Stapp ICQ-27424429 Yahoo Pager-WorthyWoman http://www.hal-pc.org/~lisa/ http://www.osl.cc +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Poor human reason, when it trusts in itself, substitutes the strangest absurdities for the highest divine concepts. ... St. John Chrysostom (345?-407) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Mitchell" To: Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 5:34 AM Subject: RE: [sword-devel] two new german beta modules > How about "The Best of Martin Luther":) > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 20 23:26:44 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Joachim Ansorg) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 00:26:44 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] Copyright of unrevised german elberfelder Message-ID: <200212210026.44751.joachim@ansorgs.de> Hi all! Today I got an eMail from the pusblisher which holds the copyright of the german unrevised elberfelder bible (module GerElb). Beginning from 01.01.2003 the text has not copyright anymore, so we can unlock it! This is great! Joachim -- Joachim Ansorg www.bibletime.de www.ansorgs.de From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 21 15:26:34 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Patrick Narkinsky) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 10:26:34 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Greek to UTF8 conversion? Message-ID: Does anyone have (or know where I can get) code to convert Greek text from ascii to UTF-8? My starting point is the NA26 published by CCAT. I'd like to convert from the obscure format used there to utf8 as used in sword. Suggestions? For those curious, I'm working on some Greek vocabulary tools. In particular, I'm hoping to develop a very simplified greek<->english lexicon which might be of some use in the Sword project. Patrick -- Patrick Narkinsky - Apprentice Pastor, Hope Community Church "Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - Chesterton From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 21 17:51:27 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Joachim Ansorg) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 18:51:27 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] New german beta cult module: GerGreb1836 Message-ID: <200212211851.27317.joachim@ansorgs.de> Added the german Bible translation GerGreb 1836 in the beta area. It's a cult/unorthodox module. The text was kindly provided by Eric Podico. Joachim -- Joachim Ansorg www.bibletime.de www.ansorgs.de From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 21 18:41:18 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 23:41:18 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Greek to UTF8 conversion? In-Reply-To: Message from Patrick Narkinsky of "Sat, 21 Dec 2002 10:26:34 EST." References: Message-ID: > Does anyone have (or know where I can get) code to convert Greek text from > ascii to UTF-8? My starting point is the NA26 published by CCAT. I'd like to > convert from the obscure format used there to utf8 as used in sword. > Suggestions? recode.exe or iconv.exe -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 21 21:16:36 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Chris Little) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 14:16:36 -0700 (MST) Subject: [sword-devel] Greek to UTF8 conversion? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It might be a painful process for you. The utilities Victor mentioned would only work if the text were in a standard encoding, which it is not. They are in Beta encoding, the manual for which can be found here: http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/beta/key.html You only need the Greek parts, of course. For the Unicode equivalents, you can read the Greek codepoint chart at unicode.org. I would suggest using Perl to convert between the two, unless something else is more comfortable. Alternatives including adding a new encoding to ICU or getting the text elswhere, such as Unbound Bible. --Chris From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 21 22:57:58 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Hugo van der Kooij) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 23:57:58 +0100 (CET) Subject: [sword-devel] SWORD 1.5.5 bug in i18n code Message-ID: Hi, In my chase to get gnomesword work in Dutch I stumbled upon something I considere a bug. My Linux desktop is set to the English language but as a native Dutch speaker I prefer to do Bible work primarily in Dutch. For this I started gnomesword like: env LANG=nl /usr/bin/gnomesword This works well and the Bible books now show in Dutch. But I found that the proper code for the LANG variable should be nl_NL (or nl_BE for our southern neighbors). It might actually have the font code attached as well so it could be nl_NL.UTF-8 or whatever font you like. gnomesword hoever does not show the Bible books in Dutch if I use a proper LANG setting. I assume a fast fix might be to copy locales.d/nl.conf to locales.d/nl_NL.conf and locales.d/nl_BE.conf and ajust the conf file. I also noticed that the af.conf file contains the English names. To the best of my knowledge this should be en_SA.conf and the af.conf should look rather similar to the nl.conf file. I made myself a local copy for the language nl_NL but I assume this will be addressed in the next update of sword. A mechanism to check for a shorter version should be added to the code to handle this more gracefully. So if LANG is set to nl_NL.UTF-8 it will check for nl_NL.UTF-8.conf first then for nl_NL.conf and eventually for nl.conf before falling back to the buildin default. Hugo. -- All email sent to me is bound to the rules described on my homepage. hvdkooij@vanderkooij.org http://hvdkooij.xs4all.nl/ Don't meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are subtle and quick to anger. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 21 23:21:52 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 16:21:52 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] SWORD 1.5.5 bug in i18n code References: Message-ID: <3E04F790.9000609@crosswire.org> Hugo, Good suggestions. Yes, we're hoping to address this with a 'hierachical fallback' mechanism like you suggest. Want to do it? :) -Troy. Hugo van der Kooij wrote: > Hi, > > In my chase to get gnomesword work in Dutch I stumbled upon something I > considere a bug. > > My Linux desktop is set to the English language but as a native Dutch > speaker I prefer to do Bible work primarily in Dutch. > > For this I started gnomesword like: > env LANG=nl /usr/bin/gnomesword > > This works well and the Bible books now show in Dutch. But I found that > the proper code for the LANG variable should be nl_NL (or nl_BE for our > southern neighbors). It might actually have the font code attached as well > so it could be nl_NL.UTF-8 or whatever font you like. > > gnomesword hoever does not show the Bible books in Dutch if I use a proper > LANG setting. > > I assume a fast fix might be to copy locales.d/nl.conf to > locales.d/nl_NL.conf and locales.d/nl_BE.conf and ajust the conf file. > > I also noticed that the af.conf file contains the English names. To the > best of my knowledge this should be en_SA.conf and the af.conf should look > rather similar to the nl.conf file. > > I made myself a local copy for the language nl_NL but I assume this will > be addressed in the next update of sword. > > A mechanism to check for a shorter version should be added to the code to > handle this more gracefully. So if LANG is set to nl_NL.UTF-8 it will > check for nl_NL.UTF-8.conf first then for nl_NL.conf and eventually for > nl.conf before falling back to the buildin default. > > Hugo. > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 21 23:49:51 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Hugo van der Kooij) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 00:49:51 +0100 (CET) Subject: [sword-devel] SWORD 1.5.5 bug in i18n code In-Reply-To: <3E04F790.9000609@crosswire.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Dec 2002, Troy A. Griffitts wrote: > Hugo, > Good suggestions. Yes, we're hoping to address this with a > 'hierachical fallback' mechanism like you suggest. Want to do it? :) You can't be that desperate, or can you? I hope to solve the riddle of adding a language to installed red Hat Linux 8.0 setup and then continue to do the translation of GnomeSword in Dutch. I have struggled with code around the time of linux 0.9.5 because you needed to fix about 90% of the code that would compile clean on SunOS 4. Beyond that I have no C coding experience. Hugo. -- All email sent to me is bound to the rules described on my homepage. hvdkooij@vanderkooij.org http://hvdkooij.xs4all.nl/ Don't meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are subtle and quick to anger. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 22 22:18:48 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 15:18:48 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Re: tagging References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021222164232.012dc378@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <3E063A48.5090903@crosswire.org> > As I am understanding your directions, I am simply to put the yellow > brackets around the word or words used to translate the Greek term. Yes. > The root definition and morphological code is already supplied for each > Greek word. Yes. > I have not yet found how to do this yellow bracketing, but > I'm sure I will as I play with it with your instructions. Please feel free to ask questions if you need help. > What will I do when the translated word is supplied for > clarity (usually in italics) but there is not an actual > Greek word associated it This is addressed in the Help|Guidelines section on the main menu. In short, you will see a {FI}add words{Fi} looking construct in the English. These {FI} marks mean "Format Italics" and indicate where should should not tag, for the reason you expressed above. > or when I am translating an idiom such as "God forbid" > from MH GINOITW? We will be programmatically combining Greek tags that have been left empty, by certain rules. For example. We're not tagging simple definite articles. e.g. hO LOGOS ==> hO tag would be left empty, and LOGOS tag would surround "the Word". We'll then combine the definite article tags that have been left empty with their nouns immediately following (or separated by a postpositive) as long as the declensions are the same. All this to say, I would leave MH empty and tag "God forbid" with GINOITW. Then we can come up with a programmatic rule to find all empty MH tags and combine them with a following GINOITW tag, it it exists. These are great questions. We have a project mailing list that would really benefit from these types of discussions. If fact, I'll forward this message to the list. If you're interested, please feel free to join sword-devel by sending an email to: majordomo@crosswire.org with the body of the message containing: subscribe sword-devel We've love to have you. Thank you, again. -Troy. > > Pastor Norman Goos > 577 E. Jimmie Leeds Road > Galloway, NJ 08205 > Home: 609-652-2238 > Office: 609-965-5835 > FAX: 609-404-1253 > Web Page: www.christswesleyan.org > NOTE: please do not send un-requested "forwarded" mail of any kind to > this E-mail address, as it is not read and clogs up the mail box. This > mailbox will not receive attachments larger than 100 kb, unless > arranged with Norm Goos in advance. Thank you for your cooperation. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Mon Dec 23 10:33:03 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Joachim Ansorg) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:33:03 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] Unable to access crosswire.org Message-ID: <200212231133.03952.joachim@ansorgs.de> Hi! I get these error messages: type Exception report message description The server encountered an internal error () that prevented it from fulfilling this request. exception org.apache.jasper.JasperException: Unable to compile class for JSP An error occurred at line: -1 in the jsp file: null Generated servlet error: [javac] Compiling 1 source file at org.apache.jasper.compiler.DefaultErrorHandler.javacError(Unknown Source) at org.apache.jasper.compiler.ErrorDispatcher.javacError(Unknown Source) at org.apache.jasper.compiler.Compiler.generateClass(Unknown Source) .... ... ... Joachim -- Joachim Ansorg www.bibletime.de www.ansorgs.de From sword-devel@crosswire.org Mon Dec 23 21:14:04 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 14:14:04 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] tagging acts 5:4 Message-ID: <3E077C9C.7090104@crosswire.org> Hey guys, I could really use some serious help tagging acts 5:4 Anyone have time to look at it and comment? (or just tag it) -Troy. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 26 18:29:12 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Ken Phelan) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 13:29:12 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] tagging acts 5:4 In-Reply-To: <3E077C9C.7090104@crosswire.org> References: <3E077C9C.7090104@crosswire.org> Message-ID: <200212261329.12541.kphelan@ix.netcom.com> On Monday 23 December 2002 16:14, Troy A. Griffitts wrote: > Hey guys, > > I could really use some serious help tagging acts 5:4 > > Anyone have time to look at it and comment? (or just tag it) > > -Troy. I'd love to help out. Although I possess only rudimentary skills in programming, I may be able to lend a hand. Is tagging simply taking the code and verifying/creating the proper pointers to the required reference? If not, can someone show me what is required and possibly an example. I'm a quick study. Ken From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 26 21:19:17 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 14:19:17 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] tagging acts 5:4 References: <3E077C9C.7090104@crosswire.org> <200212261329.12541.kphelan@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3E0B7255.2080707@crosswire.org> Ken, The project page is at: http://www.crosswire.org/sword/kjv2003 It explains what volunteers would need to do, and you can find a screenshot a little farther down on that page that shows an example from John 1:1 that has been tagged correctly. Thanks for considering serving with us in this effort! -Troy. Griffitts wrote: > >>Hey guys, >> >>I could really use some serious help tagging acts 5:4 >> >>Anyone have time to look at it and comment? (or just tag it) >> >> -Troy. > > > I'd love to help out. Although I possess only rudimentary skills in > programming, I may be able to lend a hand. > > Is tagging simply taking the code and verifying/creating the proper pointers > to the required reference? If not, can someone show me what is required and > possibly an example. I'm a quick study. > > Ken > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 28 05:29:38 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Timothy R. Butler) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 23:29:38 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] Bibletime RPM's In-Reply-To: <1038610926.29052.3.camel@fairlane.home.lan> References: <1038610926.29052.3.camel@fairlane.home.lan> Message-ID: <200212272329.43274.tbutler@uninetsolutions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Anthony, I think there is already a good RPM for BT on MDK 9.0. Texstar (of PCLINUXONLINE.com) has a package that works very well for me atleast. :-) Blessings, Tim On Friday 29 November 2002 05:02 pm, anthony kerr wrote: > If someone could point me to some clear instructions about how to make > an RPM of BT I could do it for Mandrake 9 (right now I wouldn't have a > clue how to do it). I have an unchanged install of the download > edition, perhaps this would save Brook doing a full reinstall. > Particularly if Brook has KDE 3.1 running. > > > in Christ > anthony - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler tbutler@uninetsolutions.com Universal Networks http://www.uninet.info Christian Portal and Search Tool: http://www.faithtree.com Enterprise Open Source Journal: http://www.ofb.biz ============= "Christian Web Services Since 1996" ============== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+DTbGK37Cns9gJ0gRAiJyAJ9MLzJinbYn+R0XQ1ib2oLTZbFojwCdGWG5 V4Q/beXogCHAuso9X3M6bMU= =0W25 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 29 00:39:28 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Brook Humphrey) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 16:39:28 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] Bibletime RPM's In-Reply-To: <200212272329.43274.tbutler@uninetsolutions.com> References: <1038610926.29052.3.camel@fairlane.home.lan> <200212272329.43274.tbutler@uninetsolutions.com> Message-ID: <200212281639.28330.bah@webmedic.net> On Friday 27 December 2002 09:29 pm, Timothy R. Butler wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi Anthony, > I think there is already a good RPM for BT on MDK 9.0. Texstar (of > PCLINUXONLINE.com) has a package that works very well for me atleast. :-) > > Blessings, > Tim > sorry for taking so long I usually do them but my mandrake box is running the texstar kde 3.1 rpm's I have built bibletime and sword for kde 3.1 but dont really want to go back to the 3.0 code branch. So If you want them I have them and they are done corretly. Also I just repackaged allot of the modules as rpm's. It has been many years since I've redone them and now well I'm redoing them all. I've got about 20 of them done right now. -- -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- Brook Humphrey Mobile PC Medic, 420 1st, Cheney, WA 99004, 509-235-9107 http://www.webmedic.net, bah@webmedic.net, bah@linux-mandrake.com Holiness unto the Lord -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 29 05:12:05 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Charles W. Crary) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 21:12:05 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] icu-sword location Message-ID: <000201c2aef8$d4bcca60$0400a8c0@portnoy> I'm trying to build some of the C++Builder projects for Win32 contained in the 1.5.5 tarball, and it appears that they all reference another separate project called icu-sword. I've seen it mentioned in some messages as being in CVS, but I am unable to find it in the SourceForge repository. Can anyone give me an idea as to where I should look for it. Thanks for the help, Charles Crary ---------------------------------------- Charles W. Crary - charles.crary@cox.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities -- all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. --------------------------------------------------------------------- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 29 07:53:48 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (David Overcash) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 23:53:48 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] icu-sword location References: <000201c2aef8$d4bcca60$0400a8c0@portnoy> Message-ID: <000901c2af0f$6c4b9c60$5001a8c0@DAVE> when you do cvs checkout, change module name to icu-sword instead of sword... download them so taht sword and icu-sword are in same directory ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles W. Crary" To: Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 9:12 PM Subject: [sword-devel] icu-sword location > I'm trying to build some of the C++Builder projects for Win32 contained in > the 1.5.5 tarball, and it appears that they all reference another separate > project called icu-sword. I've seen it mentioned in some messages as being > in CVS, but I am unable to find it in the SourceForge repository. Can > anyone give me an idea as to where I should look for it. > > Thanks for the help, > > Charles Crary > > ---------------------------------------- > Charles W. Crary - charles.crary@cox.net > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; > for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, > visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities > or authorities -- all things were created through him and for him. > He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 29 07:25:36 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 00:25:36 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] icu-sword location References: <000201c2aef8$d4bcca60$0400a8c0@portnoy> <000901c2af0f$6c4b9c60$5001a8c0@DAVE> Message-ID: <3E0EA370.9090205@crosswire.org> And also be sure to use CrossWire's CVS repository, and NOT sourceforge's. http://www.crosswire.org/sword/develop/biblecs/cvs.jsp David Overcash wrote: > when you do cvs checkout, change module name to icu-sword instead of > sword... download them so taht sword and icu-sword are in same directory > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Charles W. Crary" > To: > Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 9:12 PM > Subject: [sword-devel] icu-sword location > > > >>I'm trying to build some of the C++Builder projects for Win32 contained in >>the 1.5.5 tarball, and it appears that they all reference another separate >>project called icu-sword. I've seen it mentioned in some messages as > > being > >>in CVS, but I am unable to find it in the SourceForge repository. Can >>anyone give me an idea as to where I should look for it. >> >>Thanks for the help, >> >>Charles Crary >> >>---------------------------------------- >>Charles W. Crary - charles.crary@cox.net >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; >>for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, >>visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities >>or authorities -- all things were created through him and for him. >>He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 29 17:12:35 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Christian Renz) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:12:35 -0300 Subject: [sword-devel] Copyright of unrevised german elberfelder In-Reply-To: <200212210026.44751.joachim@ansorgs.de> References: <200212210026.44751.joachim@ansorgs.de> Message-ID: <20021229171235.GA49123@web42.com> >Today I got an eMail from the pusblisher which holds the copyright of the >german unrevised elberfelder bible (module GerElb). Beginning from 01.01.2003 >the text has not copyright anymore, so we can unlock it! Wow! Thanks Joachim, this is indeed a good and valuable translation. I'm looking forward to using it! Greetings, Christian -- crenz@web42.com - http://www.web42.com/crenz/ - http://www.web42.com/ "Friendship is unnecessary, like philosophy, like art... it has no survival value; rather is one of those things that give value to survival." -- C.S. Lewis From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 29 21:30:02 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Charles W. Crary) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:30:02 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] icu-sword location In-Reply-To: <3E0EA370.9090205@crosswire.org> Message-ID: <000401c2af81$72dc7e10$0400a8c0@portnoy> > And also be sure to use CrossWire's CVS repository, and NOT sourceforge's. > http://www.crosswire.org/sword/develop/biblecs/cvs.jsp I figured there was a repository on the crosswire site somewhere, but never found it. I've been able to get in without trouble. Thanks for the help David and Troy. Charles Crary From sword-devel@crosswire.org Mon Dec 30 06:51:32 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Steven P. Ulrick) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 00:51:32 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] Error making Sword CVS Message-ID: <20021230005132.49b7e1c0.spu@faith4miracle.org> Hello, Everyone :) I've just tried to make the current CVS of Sword, and this is the error I got: make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/steve1/CVS/sword/lib' make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/steve1/CVS/sword/lib' Making install in . make[1]: Entering directory `/home/steve1/CVS/sword' make[2]: Entering directory `/home/steve1/CVS/sword' /bin/sh ./mkinstalldirs /etc make[2]: *** No rule to make target `locales.d/ru.conf', needed by `installlocaleDATA'. Stop. make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/steve1/CVS/sword' make[1]: *** [install-am] Error 2 make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/steve1/CVS/sword' make: *** [install-recursive] Error 1 [root@localhost sword]# As you can see, the error occured during "make install". Make appeared to end just fine. I'm pretty sure I tried compiling after running "make distclean" and updating at an earlier time of the day, but I'm not sure, so I will try that, just in case I didn't try it earlier :) Thank you for your help on this issue :) Steven P. Ulrick From sword-devel@crosswire.org Mon Dec 30 23:00:51 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Joachim Ansorg) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:00:51 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] Error making Sword CVS In-Reply-To: <20021230005132.49b7e1c0.spu@faith4miracle.org> References: <20021230005132.49b7e1c0.spu@faith4miracle.org> Message-ID: <200212310000.51445.joachim@ansorgs.de> My fault. Please update with "cvs -z5 update -Pd" and try again running ./usrinst with your parameters. Joachim > Hello, Everyone :) > I've just tried to make the current CVS of Sword, and this is the error > I got: > make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/steve1/CVS/sword/lib' > make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/steve1/CVS/sword/lib' > Making install in . > make[1]: Entering directory `/home/steve1/CVS/sword' > make[2]: Entering directory `/home/steve1/CVS/sword' > /bin/sh ./mkinstalldirs /etc > make[2]: *** No rule to make target `locales.d/ru.conf', needed by > `installlocaleDATA'. Stop. > make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/steve1/CVS/sword' > make[1]: *** [install-am] Error 2 > make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/steve1/CVS/sword' > make: *** [install-recursive] Error 1 > [root@localhost sword]# > > As you can see, the error occured during "make install". Make appeared > to end just fine. I'm pretty sure I tried compiling after running "make > distclean" and updating at an earlier time of the day, but I'm not sure, > so I will try that, just in case I didn't try it earlier :) > > Thank you for your help on this issue :) > Steven P. Ulrick -- Joachim Ansorg www.bibletime.info www.ansorgs.de From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 31 05:09:47 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Keith Ralston) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 23:09:47 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] tagging acts 5:4 In-Reply-To: <3E077C9C.7090104@crosswire.org> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C2B058.8C7F0360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Troy, Here's my take on how to tag this. Let me know if this doesn't make sense or if you have questions. Keith P.S. Sorry about posting an attachment. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Troy A. Griffitts > Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 3:14 PM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org; Norman Goos > Subject: [sword-devel] tagging acts 5:4 > > > Hey guys, > > I could really use some serious help tagging acts 5:4 > > Anyone have time to look at it and comment? (or just tag it) > > -Troy. > > > ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C2B058.8C7F0360 Content-Type: application/x-zip-compressed; name="export.zip" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="export.zip" UEsDBBQACAAIAMW4ni0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADAAAAa2V5c0wuKVYwtTIBAFBLBwgjPAWSCgAAAAgA AABQSwMEFAAIAAgAxbieLQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIAAABudFXMSw4CIRAE0D2Jd6gDTLwCS4/gGodW SJhuA43E28tnMXHZ1a/qHmKigqjIdLjI5Dc0NwMWhYYeQRpbOPZwT6U8fp2YIukfRz493tIoW7Tw RXBlLEnFLrxT/JAfsEz96jWzaoFcVrvk7IzRFLuurIKDeMOj6rpu4q8X8wNQSwcIr7AxbXwAAAC/ AAAAUEsDBBQACAAIAMW4ni0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGAAAAbnQudnNz7c4BCQAADAOg9e/0bo8xGJrA BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACAnmsHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGPJQSwcI DZgyz0cAAABEwQAAUEsBAhQAFAAIAAgAxbieLSM8BZIKAAAACAAAAAMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AGtleVBLAQIUABQACAAIAMW4ni2vsDFtfAAAAL8AAAACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADsAAABudFBLAQIU ABQACAAIAMW4ni0NmDLPRwAAAETBAAAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAOcAAABudC52c3NQSwUGAAAAAAMA AwCVAAAAYgEAAAAA ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C2B058.8C7F0360-- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 31 07:04:08 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:04:08 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] tagging acts 5:4 References: Message-ID: <3E114168.2000004@crosswire.org> Keith, I think you may have forgotten to sign and save the verse before attempting to export. I didn't see any tags in the export you sent. I appreciate you looking at this for me. I had help from another tagger already. I'm hoping they're the same, then I won't have to decide :) -Troy. Keith Ralston wrote: > Troy, > > Here's my take on how to tag this. Let me know if this doesn't make sense > or if you have questions. > > Keith > > P.S. Sorry about posting an attachment. > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org >>[mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Troy A. Griffitts >>Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 3:14 PM >>To: sword-devel@crosswire.org; Norman Goos >>Subject: [sword-devel] tagging acts 5:4 >> >> >>Hey guys, >> >>I could really use some serious help tagging acts 5:4 >> >>Anyone have time to look at it and comment? (or just tag it) >> >> -Troy. >> >> >> > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 31 18:41:51 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Pham, Khoi) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:41:51 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] Problems Testing New Bible Modules Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B0FC.48543E36 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am a beta tester. I download the NAB and NRSV for testing. But after inslalling them, I ran SWORD, they don't show up. When I remove CipherKey=3D form the configuration files in mods.d subdirectory, they show on the tab, but I got exception error. How cam I test them? =20 Have a happy new year. =20 Pham =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B0FC.48543E36 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am a beta tester. I download the NAB and NRSV for testing. But after inslalling them, I ran SWORD, they don’t show = up. When I remove = CipherKey=3D form the configuration files in mods.d subdirectory, they show on the = tab, but I got exception error. How = cam I test them?

Have a happy new = year.

Pham

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B0FC.48543E36-- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 1 01:06:07 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Dan Bertles) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 17:06:07 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] Genbooks Galore! In-Reply-To: <20021130172655.GA21591@web42.com> References: <20021130172655.GA21591@web42.com> Message-ID: <1038704767.3de9607f3eef0@webmail.namezero.com> I tried to download the zip file, but the site: http://www.web42.com/sword/new-genbooks.zip "is not found." Quoting Christian Renz : > Well, "galore" is maybe too optimistic a term... I chose a few books > from CCEL and converted them to Sword format. They are: > > The Confessions of St. Augustine > Sermons on Gospel Themes (Charles Finney) > Heretics (Gilbert K. Chesterton) > Orthodoxy (Gilbert K. Chesterton) > The Normal Christian Life (Watchman Nee) > The Pilgrims Progress (John Bunyan) -- minor update > The Practice of the Presence of God (Brother Lawrence) > > You can get them as usual from ftp.web42.com:/pub/sword/raw (using the > Install manager) or as one zip file from > http://www.web42.com/sword/new-genbooks.zip . > > If there are no objections, I will release them on crosswire.org. > > Greetings, > Christian > > -- > crenz@web42.com - http://www.web42.com/crenz/ - http://www.web42.com/ > > "Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite > importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important." > -- C.S. Lewis > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 1 01:17:16 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Lloyd N. Landers, Jr.) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 19:17:16 -0600 (Central Standard Time) Subject: [sword-devel] Genbooks Galore! References: Message-ID: <3DE9631C.000001.01576@landers> --------------Boundary-00=_S82FQL80000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I tried to download the new files using Install Manager, but it didn't sh= ow the files. Then I tried to download the ZIP file using FTP, but got the message "file not found."=0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: sword-devel@crosswire.org=0D Date: Saturday, November 30, 2002 02:55:06 PM=0D To: sword-devel=0D Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Genbooks Galore!=0D =0D Please feel free to release them on CrossWire as beta modules. It =0D provides a conventient, central place for us to collect modules that =0D haven't yet been tested thoroughly so that they can be tested before bein= g =0D released publicly.=0D =0D --Chris=0D =0D On Sat, 30 Nov 2002, Christian Renz wrote:=0D =0D > Well, "galore" is maybe too optimistic a term... I chose a few books=0D > from CCEL and converted them to Sword format. They are:=0D > =0D > The Confessions of St. Augustine=0D > Sermons on Gospel Themes (Charles Finney)=0D > Heretics (Gilbert K. Chesterton)=0D > Orthodoxy (Gilbert K. Chesterton)=0D > The Normal Christian Life (Watchman Nee)=0D > The Pilgrims Progress (John Bunyan) -- minor update=0D > The Practice of the Presence of God (Brother Lawrence)=0D > =0D > You can get them as usual from ftp.web42.com:/pub/sword/raw (using the=0D > Install manager) or as one zip file from=0D > http://www.web42.com/sword/new-genbooks.zip .=0D > =0D > If there are no objections, I will release them on crosswire.org.=0D =0D =2E --------------Boundary-00=_S82FQL80000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0D =0A

I tried to download the new files using Install Manager, but i= t=20 didn't show the files. Then I tried to download the ZIP file = using=20 FTP, but got the message "file not found."

-------Original Message-------<= /I>

From: sword-devel@crosswire.org=

Date: Saturd= ay,=20 November 30, 2002 02:55:06 PM

To: sword-devel

Subject: Re:= =20 [sword-devel] Genbooks Galore!

Please feel free to release them on CrossWire as b= eta=20 modules. It
provides a conventient, central place for us to col= lect=20 modules that
haven't yet been tested thoroughly so that they ca= n be=20 tested before being
released publicly.

--Chris

On= Sat,=20 30 Nov 2002, Christian Renz wrote:

> Well, "galore" is ma= ybe too=20 optimistic a term... I chose a few books
> from CCEL and conv= erted=20 them to Sword format. They are:
>
> The Confessions of= St.=20 Augustine
> Sermons on Gospel Themes (Charles Finney)
>= =20 Heretics (Gilbert K. Chesterton)
> Orthodoxy (Gilbert K.=20 Chesterton)
> The Normal Christian Life (Watchman Nee)
>= ; The=20 Pilgrims Progress (John Bunyan) -- minor update
> The Practic= e of=20 the Presence of God (Brother Lawrence)
>
> You can get= them=20 as usual from ftp.web42.com:/pub/sword/raw (using the
> Insta= ll=20 manager) or as one zip file from
> http://www.web= 42.com/sword/new-genbooks.zip=20 .
>
> If there are no objections, I will release them = on=20 crosswire.org.

.

=09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09

--------------Boundary-00=_S82FQL80000000000000-- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 1 03:54:03 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Keith Ralston) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 21:54:03 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] ModEdit implied verbs In-Reply-To: <3DE836CE.5060804@crosswire.org> Message-ID: Mark 1:19 has an implied verb και αυτους εν τω πλοιω is rendered "who also *were* in the ship" with which word would you tag the implied verb, "were"? I would like to tag it with the pronoun. What do you guys think? From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 1 06:59:20 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Steven P. Ulrick) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 00:59:20 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] Fw: Re: [bt-devel] How to change fonts on new GenBooks Message-ID: <20021201005920.1a1d06b7.spu@faith4miracle.org> Begin forwarded message: Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 00:56:55 -0600 From: Steven P. Ulrick To: bt-devel@crosswire.org Subject: Re: [bt-devel] How to change fonts on new GenBooks On Sat, 30 Nov 2002 16:21:02 -0600 "Steven P. Ulrick" wrote: > Hello, everyone :) > I just downloaded the new GenBook modules created by Christian Renz on > the Sword Devel list, and I tried to change the fonts to be the same > as all my other modules, but I had no success. If this will be > corrected by the changes Joachim made to the CVS after he tried these > new modules, then I guess I'll find out after I get home from work. > But if not, any help you can give me will be greatly appreciated. > Other than that, the modules look great :) I really liked all the > titles that he chose to do:) > Hello, Everyone :) I discovered what will probably be obvious, but there are only 2 of the new GenBooks that display in the wrong fonts. And both of them have the following line in the .conf file: Lang=en-us. In a prior message, Joachim referred to en-us as invalid (and I quote from Joachim's message): > I found the following bugs/problems: > - Language should be set to en or en_us, en-us is invalid Anyway, thanks for your help on this :) Steven P. Ulrick From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 1 07:05:28 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Geoffrey W Hastings) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 23:05:28 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] Running from CD Message-ID: <20021130.230529.3656.0.geoffreyhastings@juno.com> I don't believe I have sent this in before... Version 1.5.5 If you open a verse list when running from the cd and then select a different text or commentary they will be blank. The text and commentary that were open at the time you opened the verse list still operate OK. I have tried this on several computers running different versions of windows and it seems to be consistent. This is true even if you put the verse lists on the CD. Also I have noticed that the digitract loads behind the window to select install or run from CD on some computers and in front of the window on others. I don't know if there is a way to insure that it will come up in the forefront on various machines but I thought it was worth mentioning. Geoff ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 1 09:16:24 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Christian Renz) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 10:16:24 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] Genbooks Galore! -- UPDATE In-Reply-To: <20021130172655.GA21591@web42.com> Message-ID: <20021201091624.GA50062@web42.com> Thanks for the quick feedback, everyone. I'm not too familiar with module procedures here, so please bear with me while I learn :). I made some corrections to the config files: - Added the copyright tags - Changed language tags to "en" rather than "en-us" (Note: "en_us" is *not* a valid language tag according to RFC 1766). Also, the modules are now on the Sword Beta server (ftp.sword.cx:/pub/sword/betaraw/), and the zip file can be found at http://www.crosswire.org/~crenz/new-genbooks1.zip . (The old URL was missing one directory, so the file could not be downloaded. Sorry!) Regarding Augustine's Confessions -- I will compare the German text and the English translation more thoroughly. I'm not sure whether the chapter divisions are different or whether they left out something in the middle, because the Book 1/Chapter 18 corresponds to Book 1/Chapter 20 in the German version (both are the last chapters in the first book). Lastly, I have two questions about module-making policy: 1. Did I understand correctly that we are usually not fixing spelling mistakes in module texts, but rather asking the source to fix them, then convert again? I let spelling mistakes alone, but fixed some section headings that were empty and also nested wrongly. Is that okay? 2. The modules contain several tags that BibleCS doesn't understand, but BibleTime does, namely: h1, ..., h6, ul, li, p align="center", font size="+1" (They are valid ThML also, I think). Should I change them to suit the lowest-common denominator (e.g. change

to
...
)? Have a blessed Sunday, everyone! Greetings, Christian -- crenz@web42.com - http://www.web42.com/crenz/ - http://www.web42.com/ "Our passions are not too strong, they are too weak. We are far too easily pleased." -- C.S. Lewis From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 1 13:52:04 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Dan Bertles) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 13:52:04 -0000 Subject: [sword-devel] Genbooks Galore! -- UPDATE Message-ID: <01C29940.D8847030.sword@bertles.com> Christian, I would like the text as you marked it up too. That way I can make corrections as I use these new modules. I have been working on "War on the Saints" by Jesse Penn Lewis, but haven't had a chance to finish the mark-up yet. I would also love to release "The Syrian Christ" when I get that done, but it probably won't be copywrite free for some time since it was written in 1916. I have been scanning pages, but again haven't had time to finish. Dan -----Original Message----- From: Christian Renz [SMTP:crenz-swordproject@web42.com] Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 4:16 AM To: sword-devel Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Genbooks Galore! -- UPDATE Thanks for the quick feedback, everyone. I'm not too familiar with module procedures here, so please bear with me while I learn :). I made some corrections to the config files: - Added the copyright tags - Changed language tags to "en" rather than "en-us" (Note: "en_us" is not a valid language tag according to RFC 1766). Also, the modules are now on the Sword Beta server (ftp.sword.cx:/pub/sword/betaraw/), and the zip file can be found at http://www.crosswire.org/~crenz/new-genbooks1.zip . (The old URL was missing one directory, so the file could not be downloaded. Sorry!) Regarding Augustine's Confessions -- I will compare the German text and the English translation more thoroughly. I'm not sure whether the chapter divisions are different or whether they left out something in the middle, because the Book 1/Chapter 18 corresponds to Book 1/Chapter 20 in the German version (both are the last chapters in the first book). Lastly, I have two questions about module-making policy: 1. Did I understand correctly that we are usually not fixing spelling mistakes in module texts, but rather asking the source to fix them, then convert again? I let spelling mistakes alone, but fixed some section headings that were empty and also nested wrongly. Is that okay? 2. The modules contain several tags that BibleCS doesn't understand, but BibleTime does, namely: h1, ..., h6, ul, li, p align="center", font size="+1" (They are valid ThML also, I think). Should I change them to suit the lowest-common denominator (e.g. change

to
...
)? Have a blessed Sunday, everyone! Greetings, Christian -- crenz@web42.com - http://www.web42.com/crenz/ - http://www.web42.com/ "Our passions are not too strong, they are too weak. We are far too easily pleased." -- C.S. Lewis From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 1 21:54:01 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 14:54:01 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Genbooks Galore! -- UPDATE References: <20021201091624.GA50062@web42.com> Message-ID: <3DEA84F9.4020302@crosswire.org> > 1. Did I understand correctly that we are usually not fixing spelling > mistakes in module texts, but rather asking the source to fix them, > then convert again? I let spelling mistakes alone, but fixed some > section headings that were empty and also nested wrongly. Is that > okay? I would say that fixing them (to make them consistent with the published work) isn't a _bad_ thing, but we would rather have them fixed in the source, so that when THEY update their text and WE reimport, we will not need to correct again (and other projects will be able to take advantage of the correction). Spelling mistakes in the published work should not be corrected in our electronic work. > 2. The modules contain several tags that BibleCS doesn't understand, > but BibleTime does, namely: h1, ..., h6, ul, li, p align="center", > font size="+1" (They are valid ThML also, I think). Should I change > them to suit the lowest-common denominator (e.g. change

to >
...
)? We'd like them to work in both frontends, but I think a more productive way to accomplish this would be to look in sword/src/modules/filters/thmlrtf.cpp It should be fairly straight-forward to add support for these new tags (with an RTF reference page on your screen). I'm excited to try some of these! -Troy. > > Have a blessed Sunday, everyone! > > Greetings, > Christian > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Mon Dec 2 06:48:14 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 23:48:14 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Beta Module -> Public Message-ID: <3DEB022E.4070209@crosswire.org> I'm planning to cut a new CD in the morning for production. Are there any modules that we feel comfortable moving to the public area? The new Chinese modules with Strong's numbers? Anything else? Please release the ones if you have access, otherwise email the list and hopefully someone with access will get 'em moved. THANKS! -Troy. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Mon Dec 2 08:41:45 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 13:41:45 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Beta Module -> Public In-Reply-To: Message from "Troy A. Griffitts" of "Sun, 01 Dec 2002 23:48:14 MST." <3DEB022E.4070209@crosswire.org> References: <3DEB022E.4070209@crosswire.org> Message-ID: ByzX at clean-bible.sf.net (I retell that it is modified Byz with additional strong numbers which specify all found by computer variants of reading in the absence of accentuation). -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Mon Dec 2 12:02:27 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Steve Tang) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 05:02:27 -0700 (MST) Subject: [sword-devel] Beta Module -> Public In-Reply-To: <3DEB022E.4070209@crosswire.org> Message-ID: Troy, These new Chinese modules are ready for 1.0 release, IMHO, except for a few changes, mainly naming convention as Chris suggested. Where do I upload the latest updates to be released? Steve Tang... On Sun, 1 Dec 2002, Troy A. Griffitts wrote: > Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 23:48:14 -0700 > From: "Troy A. Griffitts" > Reply-To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: [sword-devel] Beta Module -> Public > > I'm planning to cut a new CD in the morning for production. Are there > any modules that we feel comfortable moving to the public area? The new > Chinese modules with Strong's numbers? Anything else? Please release > the ones if you have access, otherwise email the list and hopefully > someone with access will get 'em moved. > > THANKS! > > -Troy. > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Mon Dec 2 19:45:59 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Martin Gruner) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 20:45:59 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: References: <3DEB022E.4070209@crosswire.org> Message-ID: <200212022045.59554.mg.pub@gmx.net> Oh no, not this again. You keep ignoring the results of the science of text criticism. I honestly hope and assume that the Sword project won't incorporate any of your stuff! Martin clean-bible.sf.net: "Old Testament was written by Moses etc. without vowels, New Testament was written without accents. Jewish rabbins (in the case of Old Testament) and theologicians (in the case of New Testament) added these signs to the text of Bible. Hebrew vowels was added 1000 years A.C.! When we remove these back, we can insert them again in many various ways, we get literally tens new translations of the Lost Book!!! Bible is lost!!! Great, great sin on the Church!!! Nothing more valuable than found back Bible!!! This project is a collection of software tools for reading Bible without vowels and accents. It is in an early stage of development." Am Montag, 2. Dezember 2002 09:41 schrieb porton@narod.ru: > ByzX at clean-bible.sf.net (I retell that it is modified Byz with > additional strong numbers which specify all found by computer variants of > reading in the absence of accentuation). From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 3 00:12:13 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (David Overcash) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 16:12:13 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? References: <3DEB022E.4070209@crosswire.org> <200212022045.59554.mg.pub@gmx.net> Message-ID: <002001c29a60$a2543240$5001a8c0@DAVE> Yes, I'm with martin on this as I recall this debate which (imho) was not too long ago... I think we should keep it out... -Dave Overcash > Oh no, not this again. You keep ignoring the results of the science of text > criticism. > I honestly hope and assume that the Sword project won't incorporate any of > your stuff! > > Martin > > clean-bible.sf.net: > "Old Testament was written by Moses etc. without vowels, New Testament was > written without accents. Jewish rabbins (in the case of Old Testament) and > theologicians (in the case of New Testament) added these signs to the text of > Bible. Hebrew vowels was added 1000 years A.C.! > > When we remove these back, we can insert them again in many various ways, we > get literally tens new translations of the Lost Book!!! Bible is lost!!! > Great, great sin on the Church!!! Nothing more valuable than found back > Bible!!! > > This project is a collection of software tools for reading Bible without > vowels and accents. It is in an early stage of development." > > Am Montag, 2. Dezember 2002 09:41 schrieb porton@narod.ru: > > ByzX at clean-bible.sf.net (I retell that it is modified Byz with > > additional strong numbers which specify all found by computer variants of > > reading in the absence of accentuation). > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 3 05:58:38 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Patrick Narkinsky) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 00:58:38 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: <002001c29a60$a2543240$5001a8c0@DAVE> Message-ID: Thus spake "David Overcash"> : > Yes, I'm with martin on this as I recall this debate which (imho) was not > too long ago... > > I think we should keep it out... That's the beauty of the GPL .. if he wants to do it, let HIM do it. (Not that I really have a right to an opinion.) Patrick -- Patrick Narkinsky - Apprentice Pastor, Hope Community Church - 757-652-9540 "Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - Chesterton From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 3 06:31:25 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Russell) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 22:31:25 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> There's nothing wrong with letting people read the scripture without the vowel marks or accents. If that's how the scripture was written, then a person should certainly be able to read it. Otherwise, you are essentially forcing that person to ONLY see the second-hand scripture with textual criticism, which you must admit is NOT 100% correct. There are some passages with unresolved word breaks and vowels where the meaning of the passage is changed enough to make some difference (for a scholar at least). Textual-criticism is useful and of course the vowel marks and accents are good for the most part. I don't think we should treat them as bad or unholy :P. However, i also think that the more powerful a tool is for letting me, the scholar, study it, the better! So when anyone wants to add more features, i say AMEN to that! Features and bloat are never a bad thing unless they slow down a system or are there just because of some bad planning or legacy features (not really features!). I would say that if you can take out the accents and vowel marks, you ought also to be able to hide the word breaks. It would be great if someday the scholar could have a small note on questionable passages where multiple renderings are possible... and with the touch of a button, the words could reorganize themselves across breaks or change their vowels/accents. Why the heck not? if someone wants to do it, that's great! From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 3 07:44:43 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Tero Favorin) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 09:44:43 +0200 Subject: [sword-devel] New Finnish Bible modules for testing Message-ID: <200212030944.43278.tero@favorin.com> Two Finnish Bible modules have been added to the beta area: - FinBiblia: New module, Finnish Biblia 1776 translation. - FinPR: Update to existing FinPR module that fixes some typos in the text. If you know some Finnish, please have a look at the texts to see if any typos are still there. Even if you don't know Finnish, you can check that the modules work technically (both modules contain the whole Bible). Jonathan Hughes has asked for a permission to distribute Finnish 1992 translation. Hopefully we can add this text to SWORD soon. -- Tero Favorin Email: tero@favorin.com Web: www.favorin.com From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 3 10:52:42 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 15:52:42 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] WHNU bug: wrong tags structure Message-ID: WHNU module (which is in ThML) in some verses has wrong structure of
tags (one
tag inside other
tag), e.g. verse Mt 10:23. Not sure how it may influence markup by GUI frontends. I suppose this happens when in the www.byztxt.com source there are more that one pair of variants in one verse. If WHNU module was produced with Perl's regular expressions (these are also similar in Python), then I recommend to the module maintainer to take a look to "perlre" manpage about greedy vs non-greedy matching (he needs non-greedy one). -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 3 11:30:59 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 16:30:59 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: Message from Daniel Russell of "Mon, 02 Dec 2002 22:31:25 PST." <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> References: <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: > I would say that if you can take out the accents and vowel marks, you > ought also to be able to hide the word breaks. It would be great if > someday the scholar could have a small note on questionable passages > where multiple renderings are possible... and with the touch of a > button, the words could reorganize themselves across breaks or change > their vowels/accents. Why the heck not? if someone wants to do it, > that's great! 1. I never have heard about different word break variant in Hebrew Bible. The Original is with word breaks. Not sure whether it was intention of God that we would rearrange the given by Him word breaks, however one should try and check whether the resulting texts are meaningless and not false. 2. Accordingly the information I have the first Greek manuscripts are without breaks. It would so allow several variants of breaking in many verses. The problem here is that it is just a rather big hard work to find all (or even some) the variants... so detailed studying of it is of a far future from now. -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 3 12:41:22 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Will Thimbleby) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 12:41:22 +0000 Subject: [sword-devel] MacSword and book problems In-Reply-To: <200211301626.33860.joachim@ansorgs.de> Message-ID: <87199F44-06BC-11D7-835B-003065B2931A@york.ac.uk> Thanks that fixed my problem. Finally this has been the major thing thats been bothering me with MacSword for a long time. On a final note: the Luther module gives top as 2,9,2 (testament, book, verse) and bottom as 2,10,1. However it doesn't include Ephesians, can you assume a bottom verse of 1 does not include that book? Also why does it always start at 2? Thanks, Will On Saturday, November 30, 2002, at 03:35 pm, Joachim Ansorg wrote: > I found the problem, > > you have to call module->setSkipConsecutiveLinks(true) before you test > for the > books. Set it to the default value false after all tests. > So the code would look in C++ this way: > > module()->setSkipConsecutiveLinks(true); > sword::VerseKey top, bottom; > > module() = sword::BOTTOM; > bottom = module()->KeyText(); > module() = sword::TOP; > top = module()->KeyText(); > > for (int i = top.Testament(); i <= bottom.Testament(); ++i) { > for ( int j = top.Book(); j <= bottom.Book(); ++j) { > //get bookname here > } > } > module()->setSkipConsecutiveLinks(false); > > You have to write j <= bottom.Book() to get all books including the > last one > which is availabe :) > > I think the difference to the Luther commentary is that the default > behaviour > of commentaries is to jump over empty parts, but bibles need the > setConsecutiveLinks call get that behaviour. > > I hope it works for you, > Joachim > >> Joachim, >> >> I looked at BibleTime, and in the end I opted for my own similar >> method, that managed to get modules such as Luther to list only >> Galations. Using ObjC, but should be pretty clear. >> >> >> VerseKey top, bottom; >> books = [[NSMutableArray alloc] init]; >> >> module = BOTTOM; >> bottom = module->KeyText(); >> module = TOP; >> top = module->KeyText(); >> >> for (int i = top.Testament(); i <= bottom.Testament(); ++i) >> { >> for ( int j = top.Book(); j < bottom.Book(); ++j) >> { >> [books addObject:[NSString >> stringWithCString:top.books[i-1][j-1].name]]; >> } >> } >> >> >> However this does not work for some modules such as ISV and others as >> below. I tried the BT code but had no luck. >> >> Will >> >> On Friday, November 29, 2002, at 04:01 pm, Joachim Ansorg wrote: >>> Dear Will, >>> >>> in BibleTime we managed to check whether a module contains only a new >>> testament, only an old testament or both. >>> Is this what you wanted to check or wanted you to check every book is >>> it >>> exists? >>> If you wanted to do the first I think I can give you some hints. >>> >>> >>> Joachim >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I've been struggling for a while to get MacSword to show only the >>>> books >>>> in a module, and only have just realised, that it could (and >>>> probably >>>> is) the modules themselves. In MacSword, at least modules such as >>>> BHS >>>> and LXX think they have a NT, and modules such as ISV think it has >>>> an >>>> OT, Family thinks that it contains the whole NT, when it seems to >>>> stop >>>> after Titus. Is this a problem with my program or the modules? Any >>>> help >>>> would be appreciated. >>>> >>>> On another note a minor update to MacSword is available, ToolTips >>>> are >>>> now more refined and should function fully. Other numerous bugs are >>>> fixed as well, including proper Right to Left text rendering with >>>> verse >>>> numbers. >>>> >>>> http://www.heathmoor.plus.com/macsword/ >>>> >>>> Will >>> >>> -- >>> Joachim Ansorg >>> www.bibletime.de >>> www.ansorgs.de > > -- > Joachim Ansorg > www.bibletime.de > www.ansorgs.de > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 3 16:02:52 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Mike & Amy Swanson) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:02:52 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] New to the list and volunteer info Message-ID: Hi everyone! God bless your work! I am new to the mailing list. You all have done a stellar job with Sword from what I have seen. I just ordered a CD yesterday and I'm anxious to get it. :o) I would like to volunteer my writing skills (not technical, though - sorry! ) if at any point you would have need of them. A few years ago I started and edited a monthly four page newsletter at my job. I did that for about five years. I also wrote a couple press releases for them for the local newspaper. Nothing big, but hey, it's something! haha I also have written a lot of stories, songs, poems, etc. I enjoy writing and would love an opportunity to serve God with something as important as His word. I am now a home-schooling mom, so time would not be a problem. If I can help, just let me know. Thanks and God bless! Amy \ o / ************************* Jesus is coming SOON (Get Right or Be Left...) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 3 17:41:29 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Jerry Hastings) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 10:41:29 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: References: <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021203102433.00c54e90@mail.dancris.com> At 04:30 PM 12/3/2002 +0500, porton@narod.ru wrote: >2. Accordingly the information I have the first Greek manuscripts are without >breaks. It would so allow several variants of breaking in many verses. ... Requiring one to literally, "rightly divide the word of truth," as also metaphorically. Jerry From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 3 18:34:13 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Russell) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 10:34:13 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: References: <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3DECF925.3090509@u.washington.edu> > > >1. I never have heard about different word break variant in Hebrew Bible. The >Original is with word breaks. Not sure whether it was intention of God that we >would rearrange the given by Him word breaks, however one should try and check >whether the resulting texts are meaningless and not false. > > > The original was without word breaks as a matter of fact. Hebrew was written without word breaks generally, like all other forms of punctuation, excepting the occassional bold "font" for emphasis, particularly on pronouns. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 3 19:28:09 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Russell) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 11:28:09 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021203102433.00c54e90@mail.dancris.com> References: <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> <4.2.0.58.20021203102433.00c54e90@mail.dancris.com> Message-ID: <3DED05C9.2020709@u.washington.edu> I failed to mention that the Hebrews did in fact occassionally separate words with a point or stroke, like the Phonecians and Moabites (whose languages' alphabets were almost identical to old Hebrew). These points must not have been regularly used in the original text however, since the Septuagint often makes word-divisions different from those of the Masoretic text. Jewish tradition mentions several passages in which the separation of words was regarded as doubtful. As i understand it, the situation looks like this: original and old copies from the original / \ Masoretic Text Septuigant Most Old Testament translations come from the Masoretic Text since we have had those Masoretic Text as our best Hebrew texts the longest time, while New Testatment quotations of the Old Testament come from the Septuigant (which the New Testament writers used as their Bibles). There are quite a few disagreements. We can not be sure of how often word divisions were indicated in the original original text. The Masoretic Text refers to several "old" codices such as the Leningrad Codex (published as 'Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia' and the Aleppo Codex). Unfortunately, the oldest Manuscripts of the Masoretic Text date back only to around the year 900 A.D.. Most are from 1100 A.D. or later, and no complete Text is earlier than that 1100 A.D.. If you are thinking of these codices when you think that the original text had word divisions, you must remember that these are not original, but only about 1000 years old. We don't have the original text (except perhaps for a few small fragments which we are not even certain are THE original). Some of the earliest comprehensive Hebrew texts we even have the Dead Sea scrolls, and those were not written until around the 3rd century BC to 68 A.D. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 3 19:46:55 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 00:46:55 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 03 Dec 2002 10:41:29 MST." <4.2.0.58.20021203102433.00c54e90@mail.dancris.com> References: <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> <4.2.0.58.20021203102433.00c54e90@mail.dancris.com> Message-ID: > At 04:30 PM 12/3/2002 +0500, porton@narod.ru wrote: > >2. Accordingly the information I have the first Greek manuscripts are without > >breaks. It would so allow several variants of breaking in many verses. ... > > Requiring one to literally, "rightly divide the word of truth," as also > metaphorically. Junkle for junkle: "Don't divide truth; take it all as a whole"... I'm am interested in any example of anybody who would get a false sentence from Bible by substituting another vowels/accents as approptiate or redividing Greek words (namely proven to be false, with no know proof to be true is not enough). Well, wait me yet for reverse examples as now I'm yet busy with programming. -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 3 20:24:55 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Russell) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 12:24:55 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: References: <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> <4.2.0.58.20021203102433.00c54e90@mail.dancris.com> Message-ID: <3DED1317.4000109@u.washington.edu> > > >Junkle for junkle: "Don't divide truth; take it all as a whole"... > >I'm am interested in any example of anybody who would get a false sentence from Bible by substituting another vowels/accents as approptiate or redividing Greek words (namely proven to be false, with no know proof to be true is not enough). Well, wait me yet for reverse examples as now I'm yet busy with programming. > > What? From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 3 21:16:57 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 02:16:57 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: Message from Daniel Russell of "Tue, 03 Dec 2002 12:24:55 PST." <3DED1317.4000109@u.washington.edu> References: <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> <4.2.0.58.20021203102433.00c54e90@mail.dancris.com> <3DED1317.4000109@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: > >I'm am interested in any example of anybody who would get a false sentence from Bible by substituting another vowels/accents as approptiate or redividing Greek words (namely proven to be false, with no know proof to be true is not enough). Well, wait me yet for reverse examples as now I'm yet busy with programming. > > > > > What? I meant: Show me a contradiction in without-vowels/accents-Bible, I meant (in any two readings of any two verses). Aren't you a relative of Bertran Rassel, a logician and a famous atheist? Well, the time to stop the discussion, which I haven't intented to begin when the software (for both sides!) isn't yet ready!! -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 3 22:55:51 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:55:51 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: jude Message-ID: I have started Jude. Please check some verses and give some comments. Have I split too many tags, i.e. if Greek has "adjective substantive" and english "the adjective substantive" is it right to split "substantive" to "the ... substantive"? Or is it better to tag articles or preposition to the closest word? I have now split tags and combined the qualifiers with the words they really qualify. Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 4 00:14:11 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 02:14:11 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: Jude ready, what's next Message-ID: I completed Jude (joining to this list was too time-consuming :). Still waiting for comments though. I feel quite confident and can take something else. How about couple of first verses of Revelation? Or is it better to take one whole book? I won't take too much because I don't know my near future schelude. Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 4 02:34:30 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (David Overcash) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 18:34:30 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: Jude ready, what's next References: Message-ID: <000901c29b3d$c3f83850$5001a8c0@DAVE> I'd like to be the first to thank you for your work and willingness to help! -Dave Overcash > I completed Jude (joining to this list was too time-consuming :). > Still waiting for comments though. > > I feel quite confident and can take something else. How about couple of > first verses of Revelation? Or is it better to take one whole book? I > won't take too much because I don't know my near future schelude. > > Sincerely Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 4 02:48:15 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 19:48:15 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: Jude ready, what's next References: Message-ID: <3DED6CEF.4000000@crosswire.org> Eeli, Thank you! Just had a look at Jude. It seems that you may have missed a few of our emails on this list about tagging practices. This is my fault, as these comments should have been added to the Help|Guidelines dialog. Stuff looks good, except for a few minor things. Each word not in between {FI}word{Fi} tags should be tagged with a Greek tag. For example, in verse 1: 'the servant' should be tagged with DOULOS, even though there was no article present. The translator chose to translate with a definite article and we can only mark what they chose to do. 'of Jesus' should be marked with IHSOU because it is in the genitive. 'to them that are sanctified' should be marked with hHGIASMENOIS as it has a dative plural present etc. form. Do these make sense? And yes, I would have split the direct article as you are doing, though I'm not sure it makes much difference, e.g. the blue car, tagged: 'the car' (with split). and 'blue', right? Thanks again! Hope this helps. -Troy. Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > I completed Jude (joining to this list was too time-consuming :). > Still waiting for comments though. > > I feel quite confident and can take something else. How about couple of > first verses of Revelation? Or is it better to take one whole book? I > won't take too much because I don't know my near future schelude. > > Sincerely Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 4 07:52:23 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Russell) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 23:52:23 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: References: <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> <3DEC4FBD.20505@u.washington.edu> <4.2.0.58.20021203102433.00c54e90@mail.dancris.com> <3DED1317.4000109@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3DEDB437.2010106@u.washington.edu> > > >I meant: Show me a contradiction in without-vowels/accents-Bible, I meant (in any two readings of any two verses). > >Aren't you a relative of Bertran Rassel, a logician and a famous atheist? > >Well, the time to stop the discussion, which I haven't intented to begin when the software (for both sides!) isn't yet ready!! > > I have no idea how you came to the erraneous conclusion that i am an anti-Bible person. I was simply pointing out that the original was without vowels or spaces, since those were features that were added to the Hebrew language later. There was a fellow who thus wrote a module to allow a student to turn off those features to see the text as it was originally written (approximately). My argument was that if someone wants to make such a module, that's wonderful. The more tools we have to study the scriptures, the better. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 4 10:16:26 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:16:26 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: Jude ready, what's next In-Reply-To: <3DED6CEF.4000000@crosswire.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Dec 2002, Troy A. Griffitts wrote: > For example, in verse 1: 'the servant' should be tagged with DOULOS, > even though there was no article present. The translator chose to > translate with a definite article and we can only mark what they chose > to do. > > 'of Jesus' should be marked with IHSOU because it is in the genitive. > > 'to them that are sanctified' should be marked with hHGIASMENOIS as it > has a dative plural present etc. form. > > Do these make sense? > Yes. I forgot to check the first verses after practicing. The rest should be better already. If someone still wants to check, don't look at the first ones until I correct them :) > And yes, I would have split the direct article as you are doing, though > I'm not sure it makes much difference, e.g. the blue car, tagged: 'the > car' (with split). and 'blue', right? > Yes, great. For the sake of consistency between different taggers this might be good to append to guidelines, after all this kind of syntax is very common. Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 4 10:41:36 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:41:36 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: some words translated with a preposition Message-ID: I noticed that in Heb 1:4 "kreittoon toon aggeloon" is tagged so that "kreittoon" is "better than" and "toon aggeloon" is "the angels". First I thought that it was a mistake. After all "than" is included only when the substantive is in genitive. but then I noticed I have a similar problem in Jude. In v. 24 "katenoopion" is "in the presence of" even in the dictionary. However, "of" belongs to it only in some circumstances and thus would belong to "glory". So, which one is better? I would add "of" to "glory". Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 4 11:01:37 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:01:37 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: so what's my next mission Message-ID: I corrected some bugs in Jude and am ready to take something else, as I said before. I have no favourites, you can choose freely some chapters (maybe four is maximum). I can also do double-checking for some other's work if that is better. I read some postings about that topic - is something planned already? Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 4 15:19:40 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Benjamin Norman) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 10:19:40 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: some words translated with a preposition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DEE1D0C.9020407@one.net> mea culpa, Having done a few chapters since this verse and having reviewed my Greek grammar book for exactly this question: 'than' should go with the genitive word, as was your first inclination :). I will change this, thanks for bringing that to my attention. I would be interested in any further issues in my proofing of Hebrews so if you want something more to do, why not second proof any green chapters on the status page? (hopefully you won't find much more in mine after chapter 2 but if you do so much the better, I can be humble about it O:) LIST READERS WANTING TO HELP WITH KJV2003: This goes for all you other lurkers out there not feeling able to take responsibility for a whole book or chapter. The Greek to English leaves a lot of room for discussion and I don't mind being peer reviewed :) especially if it means a better more useful tool for others, in fact I want it. I have second guessed myself much along the way (ie should non-declined words like the Hebrew words in Greek {like melchisedek} be tagged with English prepositions like 'of'... which later examples indicates yes, otherwise you get into strange situations) ... if you want to review and document the norms we all are using for use in the guidelines to help others while you are at it /even better/! I have a question for the list: in Heb 5:12 there is 'which {FI}be{Fi}' ... /what/ is _which_ supposed to be marked with? Nothing I tried to match it to with seemed right, and I left it unmarked until further inspiration. So far it has stumped Troy and myself (sorry Troy ;). humbly yours, Benjamin Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > I noticed that in Heb 1:4 "kreittoon toon aggeloon" is tagged so that > "kreittoon" is "better than" and "toon aggeloon" is "the angels". First > I thought that it was a mistake. After all "than" is included only when > the substantive is in genitive. but then I noticed I have a similar > problem in Jude. In v. 24 "katenoopion" is "in the presence of" even in > the dictionary. However, "of" belongs to it only in some circumstances > and thus would belong to "glory". > > So, which one is better? I would add "of" to "glory". > > Sincerely Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 4 18:19:48 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Mentler Gyula) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 19:19:48 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] Uilocalization problems Message-ID: <3DEE5554.27106.2A00637B@localhost> Hello I wrote an uilocale file to the hungarian language to the Sword. It works well but there are some points where the original english appears instead of the localized string. For example: All points in the Options menu except Preferences. The text before the printing, saying that it is beta function. On the search panel - Search type; Multi Word, Phrase, Regular Expression (the later three has syntax problem in the template file but it is easy to recognize and correct) Search for word in the right button pop up menu. I checked it with other locales and the problem still remains. There are several places where the room is not enough long for the hungarian text. For example: Preview on the print panel. (Megtekint�s in hungarian) Show devotionals on startup I suggest to make the width of the buttons dynamic or grow them. (There is a place - I forgot which - where the button is big enough but the text is cut.) Could somebody to review the code? Thanks Gyula From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 4 21:50:37 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Lamar Owen) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 16:50:37 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: some words translated with a preposition In-Reply-To: <3DEE1D0C.9020407@one.net> References: <3DEE1D0C.9020407@one.net> Message-ID: <200212041650.37359.lamar.owen@wgcr.org> On Wednesday 04 December 2002 10:19, Benjamin Norman wrote: > a lot of room for discussion and I don't mind being peer reviewed :) As the original KJV translation was done under a peer review situation, peer review of this would be more than appropriate. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 4 22:29:48 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 15:29:48 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: so what's my next mission References: Message-ID: <3DEE81DC.1080809@crosswire.org> Eeli, I've signed you up for Rev 1-3. Hope this is ok. -Troy. Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > I corrected some bugs in Jude and am ready to take something else, as I > said before. I have no favourites, you can choose freely some chapters > (maybe four is maximum). > > I can also do double-checking for some other's work if that is better. I > read some postings about that topic - is something planned already? > > Sincerely Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 4 22:39:54 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Christian Renz) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:39:54 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] Genbooks Galore! -- UPDATE In-Reply-To: <01C29940.D8847030.sword@bertles.com> References: <01C29940.D8847030.sword@bertles.com> Message-ID: <20021204223954.GB1593@web42.com> Hi Dan, sorry for the late reply! >I would like the text as you marked it up too. That way I can make >corrections as I use these new modules. Great idea! I used XML files from ccel.org; the exact URL is in the .conf-file. I cc'ed you on an e-mail to CCEL; I was thinking about submitting corrections as well and asked them about the best procedure. Greetings, Christian -- crenz@web42.com - http://www.web42.com/crenz/ - http://www.web42.com/ "The worst attitude of all would be the professional attitude which regards children in the lump as a sort of raw material which we have to handle." -- C.S. Lewis, On Three Ways of Writing for Children From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 4 23:04:57 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (John Gardner) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 15:04:57 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: <3DED05C9.2020709@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: I believe some entertain a certain fear that we just HAVE to have the absolute real thing. There are actually two fears that mix together sometimes: 1) We have to have the original or as close to it as possible or somehow we'll be greatly deceived. 2) We can't have man messing with it (i.e. translating it) The scriptures actually address these issues. 1) Christ himself (and the apostles) quoted the septuagint (as opposed to the original hebrew) as authoritative. 2) Everything WE do is mixed with ourselves, whether it is preaching, giving, singing, or praying. Yet it the scriptures teach us that for Christ's sake, they are accepted. Even when imperfect (and they always are) in themselves. 3) God has given us a teacher, his Spirit. 4) The scripture abundantly teach that those who seek for truth find it. Some of the godliest saints (e.g. John Bunyan, Peter, John) were not scholars, didn't know textual criticism and didn't sweat it. They loved God and preached in power using what they had (John Bunyan used the Geneva bible most likely as the KJV wasn't even around yet.) and in some cases what they didn't (some notable saints were illiterate). Usually if someone is too focused on the originality and accuracy of the text they have more of a problem with obedience than with the text (from personal experience with myself). > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Daniel Russell > Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 11:28 AM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: Re: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? > > > I failed to mention that the Hebrews did in fact occassionally separate > words with a point or stroke, like the Phonecians and Moabites (whose > languages' alphabets were almost identical to old Hebrew). These points > must not have been regularly used in the original text however, since > the Septuagint often makes word-divisions different from those of the > Masoretic text. Jewish tradition mentions several passages in which the > separation of words was regarded as doubtful. > > As i understand it, the situation looks like this: > > original and old copies from the original > / \ > Masoretic Text Septuigant > > Most Old Testament translations come from the Masoretic Text since we > have had those Masoretic Text as our best Hebrew texts the longest time, > while New Testatment quotations of the Old Testament come from the > Septuigant (which the New Testament writers used as their Bibles). There > are quite a few disagreements. We can not be sure of how often word > divisions were indicated in the original original text. The Masoretic > Text refers to several "old" codices such as the Leningrad Codex > (published as 'Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia' and the Aleppo Codex). > > Unfortunately, the oldest Manuscripts of the Masoretic Text date back > only to around the year 900 A.D.. Most are from 1100 A.D. or later, and > no complete Text is earlier than that 1100 A.D.. If you are thinking of > these codices when you think that the original text had word divisions, > you must remember that these are not original, but only about 1000 years > old. We don't have the original text (except perhaps for a few small > fragments which we are not even certain are THE original). Some of the > earliest comprehensive Hebrew texts we even have the Dead Sea scrolls, > and those were not written until around the 3rd century BC to 68 A.D. > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 4 23:07:20 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 01:07:20 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: "tina" in heb 5:12 In-Reply-To: <3DEE1D0C.9020407@one.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Benjamin Norman wrote: > genitive word, as was your first inclination :). I will change this, Sounds reasonable. I will add "of" to "glory". > I have a question for the list: in Heb 5:12 there is 'which {FI}be{Fi}' > ... /what/ is _which_ supposed to be marked with? Nothing I tried to > match it to with seemed right, and I left it unmarked until further > inspiration. So far it has stumped Troy and myself (sorry Troy ;). > So two blind need one who can lead them ;) UBS Greek New Testament tells that "tina/", accent on the second syllable, is not very certain. Byzantine text has "ti/na". BAGD says that "ti, ti/na" can be used "as a substitute for the relative" (meaning 1 b dzeta). So "tina" is not "that one" but "which". "One" means that "one teaches" and "one" is implied from context. Maybe it should be tagged with "teach". Let me fall into ditch if I am wrong. Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 00:06:06 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 05:06:06 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: Message from "John Gardner" of "Wed, 04 Dec 2002 15:04:57 PST." References: Message-ID: > The scriptures actually address these issues. > 1) Christ himself (and the apostles) quoted the septuagint (as opposed to > the original hebrew) as authoritative. Jesus Christ himself never quoted septuagint (except of probably rare cases when He spoke with Greeks). Apostles in The Authoritative Texts really quoted septugiant, but 1. They quoted only some fragments of septugiant, not all of it. 2. AFAIK (I haven't yet checked, if I mistaken correct me.) the quotes from septugiant in NT are not literal but sometimes somehow changed. This does not add authority to septugiant. 3. BIBLE NEVER MISTAKES, BUT Paul epistles utterly CONTRADICT (!!) to Apostol's Acts speaking in Bible about whether people who was with Paul heard voice but not seen light or vice verse. But that place when Paul speaks the preaching it is a quoted (by Luke) speaking, not a direct saying of Bible, Paul surely messed here. Bible never mistakes (as opposed to man's who participated in its writing such as Paul) and never contradicts to itself: The correct is version of the Paul's epistle (where Paul is mistakeless co-author with God, while in Acts the co-author is Luke and Paul isn't and Paul mistakes in preaching). So, you have no foundation to refer to sayings of apostles as authoritative, even reverse, we all mistaken. > 2) Everything WE do is mixed with ourselves, whether it is preaching, > giving, singing, or praying. Yet it the scriptures teach us that for > Christ's sake, they are accepted. Even when imperfect (and they always are) > in themselves. I don't know this teaching. I believe in ZERO errors of any kinds in Bible. -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 00:52:29 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Patrick Narkinsky) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 19:52:29 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thus spake "porton@narod.ru"> : >> The scriptures actually address these issues. >> 1) Christ himself (and the apostles) quoted the septuagint (as opposed to >> the original hebrew) as authoritative. > > Jesus Christ himself never quoted septuagint (except of probably rare cases > when He spoke with Greeks). > > Apostles in The Authoritative Texts really quoted septugiant, but > > 1. They quoted only some fragments of septugiant, not all of it. I find this argument a bit thin. One might equally well say that Jesus quoted parts of the Hebrew Bible, but not all of it, therefore we might get rid of passages we find uncomfortable. > 2. AFAIK (I haven't yet checked, if I mistaken correct me.) the quotes from > septugiant in NT are not literal but sometimes somehow changed. This does not > add authority to septugiant. Oddly enough, I read a couple of paragraphs just the other day on this subject. From Richard Hays, "Echoes of Scripture in the Letters of Paul", xi: "It would be misleading, however, to refer to this Scripture [i.e. the Scriptures Paul uses"] as the Hebrew Bible, because the original Hebrew language of the Biblical writings was not a concern of Paul. His citations characteristically follow the Septuagint (LXX), a Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible dating from the second or third century B.C.E., which was in common use in Hellenistic synagogues during Paul's lifetime. Rarely do Paul's quotations agree with the Masoretic Hebrew text (MT) against the LXX; even the few cases of apparent agreement with the Hebrew can be explained to "hebraizing revisions," a tendency well attested elsewhere by the Greek versions of Aquila, Symmachus, and Theodotion. (A technical discussion of the biblical text employed by Paul can found in the comprehensive study of Dietrich-Alex Koch, Die Schrift als Zeuge des Evangeliums: Untersuchungen zur Verwendung und zum Verstandnis der Schrift bei Paulus. [Roughly translated by PN: The scriptures as a witness to the gospel: investigation to the use and appreciation of Scripture in the writings of Paul.] It appears that Paul, whose missionary activity concentrated on predominantly Gentile congregations in Asia Minor and Greece, normally read and cited Scripture in Greek, which was the common language of the eastern empire in his time." (For what it's worth, Richard Hays is a highly reliable source of information on this subject. He is one of the foremost American Pauline scholars, and is incidentally, while probably not truly an Evangelical, doing a lot to validate traditional evangelical understandings in many areas.) > 3. BIBLE NEVER MISTAKES, BUT Paul epistles utterly CONTRADICT (!!) to > Apostol's Acts speaking in Bible about whether people who was with Paul heard > voice but not seen light or vice verse. But that place when Paul speaks the > preaching it is a quoted (by Luke) speaking, not a direct saying of Bible, > Paul surely messed here. Bible never mistakes (as opposed to man's who > participated in its writing such as Paul) and never contradicts to itself: The > correct is version of the Paul's epistle (where Paul is mistakeless co-author > with God, while in Acts the co-author is Luke and Paul isn't and Paul mistakes > in preaching). So, you have no foundation to refer to sayings of apostles as > authoritative, even reverse, we all mistaken. I think you will find that, if you regard the accounts in Galatians 1-2 and Acts 9-15 as accurate, but not necessarily comprehensive recordings of everything that was done and said, there is no significant conflict. In fact, I am very concerned that you seem to be playing a "pick and choose" game with Scripture. Scripture is reliable as a complete canon, and should be understood with an holistic hermeneutic. It is a grave mistake to play single proof-texts off against each other, since the truth of scripture is not to be found in a single text out of context, but in all of the texts taken together. (Sorry for the off-topic discussion, but I felt that the points vis a vis the Septuagint particularly needed discussion.) Patrick -- Patrick Narkinsky - Apprentice Pastor, Hope Community Church - 757-652-9540 "Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - Chesterton From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 04:36:45 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Leon Brooks) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:36:45 +0800 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200212051236.45168.leon@brooks.fdns.net> On Thursday 05 December 2002 07:04 am, John Gardner wrote: > 1) Christ himself (and the apostles) quoted the septuagint (as opposed to > the original hebrew) as authoritative. Did they? Are you sure that wasn't an adaptation of the kind that keeps now-extinct place-names current? Anyway, if we are seriously willing to learn, God's teaching will reach us one way or another. Cheers; Leon From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 05:00:23 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (David's Mailing List and Spam Receiver) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 00:00:23 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200212050000.23985.davidslists@gmx.net> On Wednesday 04 December 2002 06:04 pm, John Gardner wrote: > The scriptures actually address these issues. > 1) Christ himself (and the apostles) quoted the septuagint (as opposed to > the original hebrew) as authoritative. Jude quotes from the book of Enoch, should we add that to cannon as authoritative too? -- Davids Mailing List And Spam Receiver Keeping me (relatively) spam free since 2002 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 05:41:49 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Russell) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 21:41:49 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DEEE71D.50900@u.washington.edu> Let's not make this into a religious argument. This is a very weak basis for deciding what to allow or block in what should be a great study tool, for all parties involved. Only insecurity in the textual traditions would make one argue that it is wrong to ask for tools to study the exact original text to be included, (if they are programmed by someone willing already). Don't censor the scriptures. By this i mean, don't talk about "authority" or "obediance" or whether the Bible is perfect or not, or whatever. It is a completely irrelevant issue unless you want to make this into a paranoid religious group of developers instead of a secure group of Bible scholars who are level headed and friendly to scholasticism in general. Let's not criticize or seek to block a tool that allows the text to be viewed almost much more closely to how it originally appeared. Regardless of whether or not that tool is deemed necessary from a religious point of view, include it if nothing else than for the sake of scholastic authenticity. Remember: this is the scripture we are talking about: it was written that way. I think a simple rule for determining ANY decisions like this should be: if the scripture appeared that way originally, it should be included (if someone has programmed it). Otherwise the message is: the original text is not good enough. You may have whatever reasons for why you think the original text is not good enough, such as the fact that it does not have vowels. You may say there's no reason NOT to include vowels, but don't limit the tools based on such standpoints. You yourself may not use the tool, but others will, and the work has already been done. Frankly, i'd prefer to read the text without vowel points for another reason: i'm used to it and i think many native Hebrew speakers would prefer it as it causes less clutter in decoding the words in the brain since less symbols are picked up by the eyes. This particular reason for including the tool is purely a matter of preference, but it is backed up by the reasons given above, so it is worth it. There are cases where various renderings are possible in Hebrew when vowels are not assumed. This can occur in Hebrew in general, not just the Bible. In some cases the words that may thus be rendered are no longer in common usage, and other, related words with different vowel points are. Thus an incorrect (even if plausible) rendering may be possible. Another example is when the vowel points (added in the Middle Ages) are taken as being one gender, but the same spelling with different vowel points can be the other gender. This can change the entire effect of a sentence since grammatical deconstruction will be affected by such a change (since gender helps determine what words are connected grammatically -- what verbs take what objects and what adjectives and adverbs modify what nouns, etc). BEING ABLE to view the original unvoweled text is useful as it can help free the mind from the erraneous belief that the vowel points that are present are absolutely correct: that no other renderings are possible. Once again, the rule for determining what tools should go into the project should be a simple one, WITH NO basis on any religious bias or assumption: if the module is authentic and can help anyone study the scripture better, or improve in some way (even slightly, even if you personally don't see how) their studying it, then it should be included. The key here is the word "authentic". I'm not talking about including a book about Dyanetics or the Book of Mormon. I'm talking about the original unvoweled text. Someone wrote a module for it. By golly, don't waste his effort. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 06:11:26 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Leon Brooks) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:11:26 +0800 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: <3DEEE71D.50900@u.washington.edu> References: <3DEEE71D.50900@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <200212051411.26998.leon@brooks.fdns.net> On Thursday 05 December 2002 01:41 pm, Daniel Russell wrote: > Regardless of whether or not that tool is deemed necessary from a > religious point of view, include it if nothing else than for the sake > of scholastic authenticity. > You yourself may not use the tool, but others will, > and the work has already been done. I think these are the bottom lines. Just because a tool exists doesn't mean that you or I must use or endorse it. Have a look at some of the other stuff we've already packaged and tell me if you don't think the vowels dispute isn't majoring on minors compared to that. Cheers; Leon From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 06:34:42 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Russell) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 22:34:42 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: <200212051411.26998.leon@brooks.fdns.net> References: <3DEEE71D.50900@u.washington.edu> <200212051411.26998.leon@brooks.fdns.net> Message-ID: <3DEEF382.1020409@u.washington.edu> Leon Brooks wrote: >On Thursday 05 December 2002 01:41 pm, Daniel Russell wrote: > > >>Regardless of whether or not that tool is deemed necessary from a >>religious point of view, include it if nothing else than for the sake >>of scholastic authenticity. >> >> > > > >>You yourself may not use the tool, but others will, >>and the work has already been done. >> >> > >I think these are the bottom lines. Just because a tool exists doesn't mean >that you or I must use or endorse it. Have a look at some of the other >stuff we've already packaged and tell me if you don't think the vowels >dispute isn't majoring on minors compared to that. > >Cheers; Leon > > > If that is the attitude that is being adopted by this group, then i wholeheartedly disagree with it. I find it absurd that the group would fail to endorse the original unvoweled text, especially considering that that is how Jewish people actually read nearly all of their text today!, nevermind the fact that God Himself allowed the authors of the text, ---- wait, scratch that, this does not have to include God ---, but the BIBLE AUTHORS THEMSELVES actually wrote the text that way. If the project chooses to go the route of neglected something THAT fundamental, and calling it a majoring in the minors, then i think the project has a fundamental flaw in its goals and assumptions and this will likely lead to further censorings and omissions on the grounds that "we don't like it" or "we don't think it is necessary". This is fustrating because this project is, right now, the de facto Bible software project, which is too bad, because projects where leaders limit the features even when they are readily available never reach their full potential. I hope you will reconsider this position. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 07:14:50 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Martin Gruner) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 08:14:50 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: <3DEEF382.1020409@u.washington.edu> References: <200212051411.26998.leon@brooks.fdns.net> <3DEEF382.1020409@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <200212050814.50217.mg.pub@gmx.net> Why are you talking so much here not really knowing the Sword project at all? Just turn off the vowels in the option filter of your Sword based bible software and voil�: there is your unvoweled text. Same thing with greek accents. It is a pity that all the time people who never contributed a single thing to the Sword project want to be the ones who make the decisions. Martin > If that is the attitude that is being adopted by this group, then i > wholeheartedly disagree with it. I find it absurd that the group would > fail to endorse the original unvoweled text, especially considering that > that is how Jewish people actually read nearly all of their text today!, > nevermind the fact that God Himself allowed the authors of the text, > ---- wait, scratch that, this does not have to include God ---, but the > BIBLE AUTHORS THEMSELVES actually wrote the text that way. > > If the project chooses to go the route of neglected something THAT > fundamental, and calling it a majoring in the minors, then i think the > project has a fundamental flaw in its goals and assumptions and this > will likely lead to further censorings and omissions on the grounds that > "we don't like it" or "we don't think it is necessary". > > This is fustrating because this project is, right now, the de facto > Bible software project, which is too bad, because projects where leaders > limit the features even when they are readily available never reach > their full potential. > > I hope you will reconsider this position. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 14:59:11 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Patrick Narkinsky) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 09:59:11 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: <3DEEF382.1020409@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Thus spake "Daniel Russell"> : > If that is the attitude that is being adopted by this group, then i > wholeheartedly disagree with it. I find it absurd that the group would > fail to endorse the original unvoweled text, especially considering that > that is how Jewish people actually read nearly all of their text today!, > nevermind the fact that God Himself allowed the authors of the text, > ---- wait, scratch that, this does not have to include God ---, but the > BIBLE AUTHORS THEMSELVES actually wrote the text that way. What precise "endorsement" do you visualize? What I hear everyone saying is "let's go ahead and include it, but let's also include the other Hebrew texts for reference." Consider a parallel case: at least some on this group regard the King James version as the best available English Translation. I regard it as a very nice translation done in 1611, and think that we have many much better translations available, even out of copyright. (In particular, the RSV is IMNSHO an excellent translation, if a bit dated.) Does this mean I should run off in a huff because I don't like the KJV? No ... I just let them do their thing and I do my own. If you produce a module that doesn't have vowel points, I'm SURE you could put it on your own website, and I imagine that Crosswire would put it in the modules list. Even if it required a software mod to work, you could still do it, because sword is GPL. However, it seems like you want someone else to do the work for you. That's not how open source software works: you have to scratch your own itch. I don't "feel an itch" for an unvoweled Masoretic text, so I'm unlikely to volunteer to work on one. I do feel "an itch" for an aspirated Westcott-Hort with UBS4 variants (contrary to popular belief, Paleographers think that the earliest Greek texts WERE aspirated, just not accented), so I might well work on that one. I don't "feel an itch" for a Windows version of Sword, so I don't mess with it. I do feel an itch for a Mac OS X version, so I scratch it. I also don't feel an itch for a Mac OS 9 version of sword - so I do all my development in cocoa. If you don't know how, learn! That's what all the rest of us had to do. Patrick -- Patrick Narkinsky - Apprentice Pastor, Hope Community Church - 757-652-9540 "Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - Chesterton From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 16:32:04 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 18:32:04 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? Message-ID: In Rev 1:9 there is "kai adelfos hymoon" which is translated "who also am your brother". I think that "adelfos" is "who am brother", but then it should be split twice because of "also" and "your". How to solve this? Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 16:47:42 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 09:47:42 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? References: Message-ID: <3DEF832E.40903@crosswire.org> Eeli, Leave a note, we'll tag it manually. It's much easier to hit these few cases manually than modify the software to allow multiple splits. Thanks for asking. -Troy. Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > In Rev 1:9 there is "kai adelfos hymoon" which is translated "who also > am your brother". I think that "adelfos" is "who am brother", but then > it should be split twice because of "also" and "your". How to solve > this? > > Sincerely Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 16:57:02 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 09:57:02 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? References: Message-ID: <3DEF855E.5000502@crosswire.org> * OK, Please end this thread. * On a few concluding notes... As Martin mentioned in his _not so polite way_ :) We already have modules that allow you to toggle vowel points. Victor wants to do more than this. His module includes all strongs numbers of any word that can programmatically be derived by removing vowel points and ignoring context. Most people on this list feel that this is bad scholarly practice and also feel that it will confuse more intermediate readers than it will help. Currently, Victor is welcome to publish this work on his own. I don't even have a problem possibly linking to his sight with a disclaimer notice. But CrossWire doesn't currently have a 'We disagree with the scholarly approach, but here's the module anyway' category. If you'd like to continue the discussion further, please email privately. -Troy. Patrick Narkinsky wrote: > Thus spake "Daniel Russell"> : > > >>If that is the attitude that is being adopted by this group, then i >>wholeheartedly disagree with it. I find it absurd that the group would >>fail to endorse the original unvoweled text, especially considering that >>that is how Jewish people actually read nearly all of their text today!, >>nevermind the fact that God Himself allowed the authors of the text, >>---- wait, scratch that, this does not have to include God ---, but the >>BIBLE AUTHORS THEMSELVES actually wrote the text that way. > > > What precise "endorsement" do you visualize? What I hear everyone saying is > "let's go ahead and include it, but let's also include the other Hebrew > texts for reference." Consider a parallel case: at least some on this group > regard the King James version as the best available English Translation. I > regard it as a very nice translation done in 1611, and think that we have > many much better translations available, even out of copyright. (In > particular, the RSV is IMNSHO an excellent translation, if a bit dated.) > > Does this mean I should run off in a huff because I don't like the KJV? No > ... I just let them do their thing and I do my own. If you produce a module > that doesn't have vowel points, I'm SURE you could put it on your own > website, and I imagine that Crosswire would put it in the modules list. Even > if it required a software mod to work, you could still do it, because sword > is GPL. > > However, it seems like you want someone else to do the work for you. > > That's not how open source software works: you have to scratch your own > itch. I don't "feel an itch" for an unvoweled Masoretic text, so I'm > unlikely to volunteer to work on one. I do feel "an itch" for an aspirated > Westcott-Hort with UBS4 variants (contrary to popular belief, Paleographers > think that the earliest Greek texts WERE aspirated, just not accented), so I > might well work on that one. I don't "feel an itch" for a Windows version > of Sword, so I don't mess with it. I do feel an itch for a Mac OS X > version, so I scratch it. I also don't feel an itch for a Mac OS 9 version > of sword - so I do all my development in cocoa. If you don't know how, > learn! That's what all the rest of us had to do. > > Patrick > > -- > Patrick Narkinsky - Apprentice Pastor, Hope Community Church - 757-652-9540 > > "Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons > exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - Chesterton From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 17:16:57 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Leon Brooks) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 01:16:57 +0800 Subject: [sword-devel] making decisions (was: clean bible) In-Reply-To: <200212050814.50217.mg.pub@gmx.net> References: <3DEEF382.1020409@u.washington.edu> <200212050814.50217.mg.pub@gmx.net> Message-ID: <200212060116.57431.leon@brooks.fdns.net> On Thursday 05 December 2002 03:14 pm, Martin Gruner wrote: > It is a pity that all the time people who never contributed a single thing > to the Sword project want to be the ones who make the decisions. `Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, teach teachers. Those who can't even teach teachers, manage things.' (-: Cheers; Leon From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 17:15:46 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Mike Sangrey) Date: 05 Dec 2002 12:15:46 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1039108552.17877.94.camel@sojurn.lns.pa.us> On Thu, 2002-12-05 at 11:32, Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > In Rev 1:9 there is "kai adelfos hymoon" which is translated "who also > am your brother". I think that "adelfos" is "who am brother", but then > it should be split twice because of "also" and "your". How to solve > this? Isn't there an article before the KAI? If so, that article goes with `who' and I think, if the tagging allows for it, the `am' should be tagged as going with `who am'.. The KAI is `also'. The rest is straight forward. -- Mike Sangrey msangrey@BlueFeltHat.org Landisburg, Pa. "The first one last wins." "A net of highly cohesive details reveals the truth." From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 18:25:55 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Victor Porton) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 23:25:55 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] We can capitalize Greek! Message-ID: I have a great idea for Sword. We can scan a Greek dictionary for capitalized words and capitalize the same words (having the same strongs) in our Greek NT modules. So we will legally get capitalized Greek NTs for free as in commercial versions! We cannot send these back to byztxt.com as their policy is against capitalization by technical reasons related to Online Bible. But we can make our modules capitalized as it is just an algorithmic change not a creative work and not error-fixing and is even reversible. It is just like what we already done: added ThML formatting or like if one changed "word"->"word ". Rather probably I will do this work in near time as I already developed some programming technologies which can be used for this. -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 18:19:51 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 23:19:51 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? Message-ID: > Thus spake "Daniel Russell"> : > > unlikely to volunteer to work on one. I do feel "an itch" for an aspirated > Westcott-Hort with UBS4 variants (contrary to popular belief, Paleographers > think that the earliest Greek texts WERE aspirated, just not accented), so I Thank you for info Patrick, this is important. Was thin and thick aspirations different 2000 years ago? I guess that no as (in modern typography variant) one needs good enough eyes to differenciate these, do I guess rightly? OK, I for aspiration. Is it enough, Patrick, a "generalized aspiration" (with no difference between thin and thick)? What was position of subscript iota in the most ancient texts (none, subscript, or normal?) Well, seemingly I already asked it somewhere some months ago, but my memory... Well, accordingly to your info (devil worked much to make infos on such question from different sources different) was in the most ancient manuscripts proper names capitalized? P.S. See my other letter for a great idea for Sword project unrelated to this discussion. -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 5 19:06:55 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Patrick Narkinsky) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 14:06:55 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thus spake "porton@narod.ru"> : >> Thus spake "Daniel Russell"> : >> >> unlikely to volunteer to work on one. I do feel "an itch" for an aspirated >> Westcott-Hort with UBS4 variants (contrary to popular belief, Paleographers >> think that the earliest Greek texts WERE aspirated, just not accented), so I > > Thank you for info Patrick, this is important. Was thin and thick aspirations > different 2000 years ago? I guess that no as (in modern typography variant) > one needs good enough eyes to differenciate these, do I guess rightly? > > OK, I for aspiration. Is it enough, Patrick, a "generalized aspiration" (with > no difference between thin and thick)? Only "thick aspirants" (in English we usually call them rough breathing marks) were marked. Since the smooth breathings are soundless, they were not marked. If you take a close look at a picture of P52 (a fragment of John from ca. 125) you can actually see an aspiration, IIRC over the article. Pictures are available at various places on the net. At that time, they were using two dots (i.e. an umlaut) above the vowel. > What was position of subscript iota in the most ancient texts (none, > subscript, or normal?) Well, seemingly I already asked it somewhere some > months ago, but my memory... > > Well, accordingly to your info (devil worked much to make infos on such > question from different sources different) was in the most ancient manuscripts > proper names capitalized? There were no iota subscripts, and all letters were capitalized. I'm not aware of any first century exceptions to that, but I'm not a paleographer, so could be wrong. Patrick -- Patrick Narkinsky - Apprentice Pastor, Hope Community Church - 757-652-9540 "Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - Chesterton From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 06:38:09 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Russell) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 22:38:09 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DF045D1.5050808@u.washington.edu> Patrick Narkinsky wrote: >Does this mean I should run off in a huff because I don't like the KJV? No >... I just let them do their thing and I do my own. If you produce a module >that doesn't have vowel points, I'm SURE you could put it on your own >website, and I imagine that Crosswire would put it in the modules list. Even >if it required a software mod to work, you could still do it, because sword >is GPL. > >However, it seems like you want someone else to do the work for you. > >That's not how open source software works: you have to scratch your own >itch. I don't "feel an itch" for an unvoweled Masoretic text, so I'm >unlikely to volunteer to work on one. I do feel "an itch" for an aspirated >Westcott-Hort with UBS4 variants (contrary to popular belief, Paleographers >think that the earliest Greek texts WERE aspirated, just not accented), so I >might well work on that one. I don't "feel an itch" for a Windows version >of Sword, so I don't mess with it. I do feel an itch for a Mac OS X >version, so I scratch it. I also don't feel an itch for a Mac OS 9 version >of sword - so I do all my development in cocoa. If you don't know how, >learn! That's what all the rest of us had to do. > > You're right. But to clarify what i was saying: 1) This is a de facto project and is going to be where people get their tools from. Simply relegating tools to other sites is not satisfactory, except when those tools are way off-base (for example: not about the Bible!). 2) I am open minded here. The analogy of the KJV is a bad one, since i'm saying exactly the opposite: that we should include tools whenever we can, only shunning those that are not authentic or that stray too independent of the Scripture itself. The more (worthy) translations should be included as much as possible (not translations which obviously lie and corrupt the text --- for example, removing passages that condemn homosexuality, and publishing a "translation" for gays, is not acceptable, and such works should be excluded, as they are not authentic). 3) I just joined up with this group, and i have been studying to develop. I was simply urging against the attitude of unreasonable censorship. Because as i mentioned above, the project is THE project for Biblical study on the computer, excluding projects from the mainline is essentially censoring them and limiting the access users will have to them. As someone kindly pointed out, there should be a filter feature to turn off the vowels in Hebrew texts, although i was unaware of this (does this exist in BibleTime? i could not find it). I hope egos won't get in the way here, since this is not an issue of me or you or what we have done or do, or what not. This is merely an issue of what is best for the project, which theoretically is everyone's project, i hope. I hope greatly to contribute, and i have been looking at the interfaces and where they fall short. The first project i plan to work on is making a list of all the "little" problems that slow me down when using the interfaces. My greatest contribution will be to that realm. I used "E-sword" on Windows everyday for a couple of hours, and thus learned exactly what makes studying with computer tools efficient. There is a lot of work to be done in this area, i hope to contribute in improving and critiquing the interfaces for Sword. (Are these related btw?). I am currently studying Hebrew and will eventually contribute a lot more to that realm... and eventually to the Greek work too, but right now i am not up to snuff. Believe me, i wish i was, and i hope i will be within the next year or two, able to contribute a lot more to the Hebrew and Greek aspects. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 10:23:31 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Stephen Denne) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 23:23:31 +1300 Subject: [sword-devel] BHS beta posted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Did the previous version have footnotes? I can't remember. They don't look right for me - lots of copyright signs and xs. Proverbs 1:27 בְּבֹ֤א כְשַׁאֲוָה (×›Ö°×©×Ö¹×•×Ö¸Ö¨×”×€ ) פַּחְדְּכֶ֗ם ֖וְֽאֵידְכֶם Stephen. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Chris Little > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 2:03 PM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: [sword-devel] BHS beta posted > > > I posted a new version of the BHS to the beta area. Those of you > who have > a chance, please check it out because we would like to be able to include > this on the new CD. > > This text has been regenerated from the Beta encoded source files using a > better Beta->Unicode decoding algorithm and should also fix the truncated > verses that people were reporting in the last release. > > --Chris > > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 10:36:06 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:36:06 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 05 Dec 2002 14:06:55 EST." References: Message-ID: > Thus spake "porton@narod.ru"> : > > >> Thus spake "Daniel Russell"> : > > Only "thick aspirants" (in English we usually call them rough breathing > marks) were marked. Since the smooth breathings are soundless, they were not > marked. If you take a close look at a picture of P52 (a fragment of John > from ca. 125) you can actually see an aspiration, IIRC over the article. > Pictures are available at various places on the net. At that time, they were > using two dots (i.e. an umlaut) above the vowel. Oh, I searched the Net yesterday several hours and found nothing (particularly no pictures)... Which side should I throw the net to catch? I suppose we can found all thick aspirated strongs by computer searching in Thayer module these word whose English transcription is starting with "h". Yes? (One with printed aspirated Thayer lexicon should check that this method is correct; well I can try to check this by myself, but my printed NT Greek lexicon (to Russian) is not keyed to strongs to make the work somehow harder) Well, I'm not sure whether aspirants may appear/disappear when a word changes grammatical form (without changing strong); huh? (You have printed Greek NT and can check by choosing 80 or so random words of which 50% is without aspirants and 50% is with in the initial form.) So we seemingly can aspirate Sword's both Greek NTs and Greek lexicons! > > What was position of subscript iota in the most ancient texts (none, > > subscript, or normal?) Well, seemingly I already asked it somewhere some > > months ago, but my memory... > > There were no iota subscripts, and all letters were capitalized. I'm not > aware of any first century exceptions to that, but I'm not a paleographer, > so could be wrong. But I'm in doubt whether these iotas was non-subscript or absent. About all caps my ignorant conjecture is that these only these texts which was fastly copied not the apostle's originals. Well, was lowercase Greek letters already "invented" in 1st century? -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 13:55:46 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 15:55:46 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: new features for ModEdit Message-ID: I hacked some time with modedit. I can now select whole English words with one mouseclick. Words next to each other will became one selection. Clicking second time on a word will unselect it. Pressing insert key on keyboard will put the active tag around the selection. Only non-split tags are supported at the moment, some advice about how to use splits programmatically would be welcome. I have put two files in my home pages. They are: http://www.student.oulu.fi/~eekaikko/MainFrame.java http://www.student.oulu.fi/~eekaikko/Selection.java Selection is new and MainFrame is replacement for the old one. I haven't tested them much. The code is very ugly now (finnish println debugging etc.) but if you are interested I can refactor and document it. "javac org/crosswire/modedit/ModEdit.java" should compile the files when they are in the unjarred directory. These features do really double or triple my tagging speed. One tag takes only two or four mouse clicks and one key press. Dragging and careful aiming are not necessary. Try it and ask if you have any questions or comments. Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 15:02:38 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Martin Gruner) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 16:02:38 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: <3DF045D1.5050808@u.washington.edu> References: <3DF045D1.5050808@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <200212061602.38709.mg.pub@gmx.net> Daniel, > As someone kindly pointed out, there should be a filter feature to turn > off the vowels in Hebrew texts, although i was unaware of this (does > this exist in BibleTime? i could not find it). from version 1.2 on BibleTime has a button in each of the display windows. This button allows you to turn on/off several different filters that are applied to the text before rendering it, such as footnotes, strong's numbers, hebrew vowel points, greek accents and others. Martin From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 17:16:23 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Steve Lorimer) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 09:16:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sword-devel] Beginning help question In-Reply-To: <200212061602.38709.mg.pub@gmx.net> Message-ID: <20021206171623.43606.qmail@web41001.mail.yahoo.com> Hi! I'm new to the Sword project (although I've followed it for at least a year). I'm interested in keying in some commentaries. One in particular is not in computerized form to my knowledge. (I've checked CCEL and other sources.) What is the best way to go about computerizing it. I will target a sword mod primarily, but keep the plain text if anyone else wants it. I tried to download the vpl2mod, but it said the file was missing. (Problem in the redirect to ftp I guess.) Is vpl the best way? Any suggestions? I appreciate the work that all of you are doing! Keep it up, and may God bless you all and this project. In Christ, Steve Lorimer Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 18:00:00 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 11:00:00 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Beginning help question References: <20021206171623.43606.qmail@web41001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3DF0E5A0.9010005@crosswire.org> Steve, Thanks for your willingness to help and serve with us. The latest versions of the windows commandline tools are at: ftp://ftp.crosswire.org/pub/sword/utils/win32 I would suggest our 'imp' format, so imp2vs is probably what you'll want to use (if the commentary is keyed to Bible book ch:vs). The imp format looks something like this: $$$jn1:1 This is commentary on John 1:1 $$$jn1:2-5 This is commentary on John 1:2 - John 1:5 Blessings on your endeavours. We have a new wiki page setup for module projects on our wiki site at: http://sword.sf.net/wiki/ You might want to post your intentions and progress and maybe you can get some help. -Troy. Steve Lorimer wrote: > Hi! > I'm new to the Sword project (although I've > followed it for at least a year). I'm interested in > keying in some commentaries. One in particular is not > in computerized form to my knowledge. (I've checked > CCEL and other sources.) What is the best way to go > about computerizing it. I will target a sword mod > primarily, but keep the plain text if anyone else > wants it. > I tried to download the vpl2mod, but it said the > file was missing. (Problem in the redirect to ftp I > guess.) Is vpl the best way? Any suggestions? > I appreciate the work that all of you are doing! > Keep it up, and may God bless you all and this > project. > > In Christ, > Steve Lorimer > > > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 18:58:30 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Barry Drake) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 18:58:30 -0000 Subject: [sword-devel] Beginning help question In-Reply-To: <20021206171623.43606.qmail@web41001.mail.yahoo.com> References: <200212061602.38709.mg.pub@gmx.net> Message-ID: <3DF0F356.30535.696E06A@localhost> Hi Steve ....... On 6 Dec 2002 at 9:16, Steve Lorimer wrote: > I'm new to the Sword project (although I've > followed it for at least a year). I'm interested in > keying in some commentaries. One in particular is not > in computerized form to my knowledge. (I've checked > CCEL and other sources.) What is the best way to go > about computerizing it. If you can make the text file but have difficulty making that into a module I'm willing to write a little routine to convert. vpl2mod MUST follow the KJV versification exactly else it will fall over - that can be a problem. I've always written little C routines, but others use a Perl script to run addvs on one verse at a time. If you do Perl, that might be easy for you. God bless, Barry -- From Barry Drake (The Revd) minister of the Arnold and the Netherfield United Reformed Churches, Nottingham see http://www.arnold-urc.supanet.com and http://www.jesusinnetherfield.org.uk for our church homepages). Replies - b.drake@ntlworld.com From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 18:53:01 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Dave Hall) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 12:53:01 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] Beginning help question - Calvin's Commentaries Message-ID: <0530398ED6DBD211AC9200902745F005066E7927@goldberg.internal.clearcommerce.com> I have created a module for Calvin's Commentaries and was asked to put this in imp format. I converted my Module to an import file. But "mod2imp" appears to lose the verse links so that the commentary text is only tied to the first verse of a reference. For example: addvs -a $MOD "2Corinthians 1:1-5" filename Adds the text in file "filename" to 2Cor. 1:1 but also does the linking (addvs -l) to verses 2,3,4 & 5 for me. So, loaking at any of these verses shows the same text. But, in the import file you just see: $$$II Corinthians 1:1 $$$II Corinthians 1:6 [...] Where it should be: $$$II Corinthians 1:1-5 $$$II Corinthians 1:6-11 [...] I am using the 1.5.5 linux tools. Here is the command I ran: mod2imp CalvinCom > calvincom [creates 1 60MB file] Am I doing something wrong? I want to make sure the Modules works properly for everyone before I release it. Once this is working what do I do? Upload it to the beta site? How? Thanks for the help. - Dave Hall P.S. I tried the wiki link below and got "Not Found The requested URL /cgi-bin/twiki/view was not found on this server.". Is the link wrong or do I need a login or something on SourceForge? -----Original Message----- From: Troy A. Griffitts [mailto:scribe@crosswire.org] Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 12:00 PM To: sword-devel@crosswire.org Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Beginning help question Steve, Thanks for your willingness to help and serve with us. The latest versions of the windows commandline tools are at: ftp://ftp.crosswire.org/pub/sword/utils/win32 I would suggest our 'imp' format, so imp2vs is probably what you'll want to use (if the commentary is keyed to Bible book ch:vs). The imp format looks something like this: $$$jn1:1 This is commentary on John 1:1 $$$jn1:2-5 This is commentary on John 1:2 - John 1:5 Blessings on your endeavours. We have a new wiki page setup for module projects on our wiki site at: http://sword.sf.net/wiki/ You might want to post your intentions and progress and maybe you can get some help. -Troy. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 19:14:51 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 12:14:51 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Beginning help question - Calvin's Commentaries References: <0530398ED6DBD211AC9200902745F005066E7927@goldberg.internal.clearcommerce.com> Message-ID: <3DF0F72B.6000700@crosswire.org> Dave, Yeah, I also had troubles with sf today. I think they're just having server problems (or else they changed their wiki url structure). It could just be that mod2imp doesn't yet correctly handle exporting of linked verses. That's a very probable conclusion, so I wouldn't worry about it, if I were you. Now _I_ have to worry about it. :) Thanks for taking all this time to work on such a large piece of work! I'm sure Chris can let you know where he'd like the module (emailed, or a link to it posted somewhere). He can place it in the beta site for you. -Troy. Dave Hall wrote: > > I have created a module for Calvin's Commentaries and was asked to put this > in imp format. > > I converted my Module to an import file. But "mod2imp" appears to lose the > verse links so that the commentary text is only tied to the first verse of a > reference. > > For example: > addvs -a $MOD "2Corinthians 1:1-5" filename > Adds the text in file "filename" to 2Cor. 1:1 but also does the linking > (addvs -l) to verses 2,3,4 & 5 for me. So, loaking at any of these verses > shows the same text. > > But, in the import file you just see: > $$$II Corinthians 1:1 > > $$$II Corinthians 1:6 > > [...] > > Where it should be: > $$$II Corinthians 1:1-5 > > $$$II Corinthians 1:6-11 > > [...] > > I am using the 1.5.5 linux tools. > > Here is the command I ran: > mod2imp CalvinCom > calvincom > [creates 1 60MB file] > > Am I doing something wrong? I want to make sure the Modules works properly > for everyone before I release it. > > Once this is working what do I do? Upload it to the beta site? How? > > > Thanks for the help. > > - Dave Hall > > P.S. I tried the wiki link below and got "Not Found The requested URL > /cgi-bin/twiki/view was not found on this server.". Is the link wrong or do > I need a login or something on SourceForge? > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Troy A. Griffitts [mailto:scribe@crosswire.org] > Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 12:00 PM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Beginning help question > > > Steve, > Thanks for your willingness to help and serve with us. The latest > versions of the windows commandline tools are at: > > ftp://ftp.crosswire.org/pub/sword/utils/win32 > > I would suggest our 'imp' format, so imp2vs is probably what you'll > want to use (if the commentary is keyed to Bible book ch:vs). > > The imp format looks something like this: > > $$$jn1:1 > This is commentary on John 1:1 > $$$jn1:2-5 > This is commentary on John 1:2 - John 1:5 > > Blessings on your endeavours. We have a new wiki page setup for module > projects on our wiki site at: > > http://sword.sf.net/wiki/ > > You might want to post your intentions and progress and maybe you can > get some help. > > -Troy. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 19:37:46 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Dave Hall) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 13:37:46 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] Beginning help question - Calvin's Commentaries Message-ID: <0530398ED6DBD211AC9200902745F005066E7928@goldberg.internal.clearcommerce.com> OK. I could possibly generate an import file from the source instead of rawcom. Is the structure of the import file defined somewhere? The $$$ is clear but Calvin does a harmony of the Gospels and the Law so I would like to link 2 or more gospel(or law) passages to the same text. Would something like these work: $$$MATTHEW 1:1-17 $$$LUKE 3:23-38 or $$$MATTHEW 1:1-17; LUKE 3:23-38 Chris, I could upload the zcom (20MB) or rawcom files somewhere. Or, if I get the import file correct, I could up load that but its 60MB. - Dave -----Original Message----- From: Troy A. Griffitts [mailto:scribe@crosswire.org] Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 1:15 PM To: sword-devel@crosswire.org Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Beginning help question - Calvin's Commentaries Dave, Yeah, I also had troubles with sf today. I think they're just having server problems (or else they changed their wiki url structure). It could just be that mod2imp doesn't yet correctly handle exporting of linked verses. That's a very probable conclusion, so I wouldn't worry about it, if I were you. Now _I_ have to worry about it. :) Thanks for taking all this time to work on such a large piece of work! I'm sure Chris can let you know where he'd like the module (emailed, or a link to it posted somewhere). He can place it in the beta site for you. -Troy. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 19:43:37 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 21:43:37 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: An old topic, infinitive/participle Message-ID: Keith Ralston asked about Mark 1:7 some time ago. I had a similar problem. I think that in Mark the basic meaning is "I'm not worthy to unloose". "kupsas" or participle generally - not in this case particularly - may mean e.g. "after stooping down", "stooping down at the same time" or "because of stooping down" or even "regardless of the fact that I stooped down". In this case "kupsas" tells under what circumstances the unloosing happens. Therefore I would tag "stoop down and" and "to unloose". Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 19:45:41 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Matthew Donadio) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 14:45:41 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] NRSV on ftp.crosswire.cx Message-ID: <3DF0FE65.C18ED246@ieee.org> I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, and I can't find my link to the mailing list archive, so... It looks like the NRSV module in ftp.crosswire.cx:/pub/sword/betaraw is munged. A bunch of books on the NT are missing the first verse: Galations through 3 John seem to have the problem. If this hasn't been noticed yet, let me know and I will investigate it some more. -- Matthew Donadio (m.p.donadio@ieee.org) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 20:15:47 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 13:15:47 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Beginning help question - Calvin's Commentaries References: <0530398ED6DBD211AC9200902745F005066E7928@goldberg.internal.clearcommerce.com> Message-ID: <3DF10573.3050809@crosswire.org> Dave, if you have the test programs, parsetest should show you if you have a valid range. Something like: parsetest "mat 1:1-17;lk 3:23-38" should show that this is valid, and you can assume that anything parsetest recognizes will be treated the same way in a $$$ imp key, so: $$$mat 1:1-17;lk 3:23-38 SHOULD work, but I can't guarantee it. If it doesn't, we should fix it. If you try it and it does, let us know so we can tell others with confidence :) -Troy. Dave Hall wrote: > OK. > > I could possibly generate an import file from the source instead of rawcom. > > Is the structure of the import file defined somewhere? > The > $$$ > > is clear but Calvin does a harmony of the Gospels and the Law so I would > like to link 2 or more gospel(or law) passages to the same text. > > Would something like these work: > $$$MATTHEW 1:1-17 > $$$LUKE 3:23-38 > > or > $$$MATTHEW 1:1-17; LUKE 3:23-38 > > > > Chris, I could upload the zcom (20MB) or rawcom files somewhere. Or, if I > get the import file correct, I could up load that but its 60MB. > > - Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Troy A. Griffitts [mailto:scribe@crosswire.org] > Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 1:15 PM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Beginning help question - Calvin's > Commentaries > > > Dave, > Yeah, I also had troubles with sf today. I think they're just > having > server problems (or else they changed their wiki url structure). > > It could just be that mod2imp doesn't yet correctly handle exporting > of > linked verses. That's a very probable conclusion, so I wouldn't worry > about it, if I were you. Now _I_ have to worry about it. :) > > Thanks for taking all this time to work on such a large piece of > work! > I'm sure Chris can let you know where he'd like the module (emailed, > or a link to it posted somewhere). He can place it in the beta site for > you. > > -Troy. > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 19:35:14 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 00:35:14 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Beginning help question In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 06 Dec 2002 18:58:30 GMT." <3DF0F356.30535.696E06A@localhost> References: <200212061602.38709.mg.pub@gmx.net> <3DF0F356.30535.696E06A@localhost> Message-ID: > I've always written little C routines, but others use a Perl script to run > addvs on one verse at a time. If you do Perl, that might be easy for you. Note that Python (www.python.org) as opposed to Perl is relatively easy to learn even for people who never before had programming experience. It is also easier to program. -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 20:56:09 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Mike & Amy) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:56:09 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] MacSword? Message-ID: <2563FFB2-095D-11D7-B3C0-0050E4D9A408@earthlink.net> I noticed the other day someone mentioned something about "MacSword." Is it available for download or is this something in the works for a future time? I just discovered the SWORD project a couple weeks ago so much of this is new to me. Thanks. Amy From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 21:18:45 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Dave Hall) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 15:18:45 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] Beginning help question - Calvin's Commentaries Message-ID: <0530398ED6DBD211AC9200902745F005066E792B@goldberg.internal.clearcommerce.com> I tried $$$Acts 1:3-5; Acts 1:6-8 and that worked just fine. Actually I generated Calvin's commentary on Acts in imp format and then used "imp2vs" to create the rawcom module and it worked! So, with a bit more fiddling with my script I'll regenerate the whole mod in imp format. I'll email when that's done and I look it over. Thanks for the quick response. - Dave -----Original Message----- From: Troy A. Griffitts [mailto:scribe@crosswire.org] Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 2:16 PM To: sword-devel@crosswire.org Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Beginning help question - Calvin's Commentaries Dave, if you have the test programs, parsetest should show you if you have a valid range. Something like: parsetest "mat 1:1-17;lk 3:23-38" should show that this is valid, and you can assume that anything parsetest recognizes will be treated the same way in a $$$ imp key, so: $$$mat 1:1-17;lk 3:23-38 SHOULD work, but I can't guarantee it. If it doesn't, we should fix it. If you try it and it does, let us know so we can tell others with confidence :) -Troy. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 22:01:28 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Steve Lorimer) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:01:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sword-devel] New commentary project In-Reply-To: <0530398ED6DBD211AC9200902745F005066E792B@goldberg.internal.clearcommerce.com> Message-ID: <20021206220128.27018.qmail@web41002.mail.yahoo.com> Troy, Thanks very much for the help. One other question, some of the commentary text is in italics, etc. Is that supported? For all - I would like to begin digitizing John Bengel's Gnomon of the New Testament (2 vol.) My copies were printed in 1860, so there shouldn't be any copywrite problems. I have not found a digital source for these, so I will be manually digitizing them. If someone knows of a digital source, I would be delighted to know where. Thanks, In Christ, Steve Lorimer __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 22:11:19 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:11:19 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Beginning help question - Calvin's Commentaries References: <0530398ED6DBD211AC9200902745F005066E792B@goldberg.internal.clearcommerce.com> Message-ID: <3DF12087.1000106@crosswire.org> Dave, I wasn't too worried about consecutive entries like your example. It's the discontiguous example, like in your previous email with mat and lk that I'm worried about. You should probably check one before doing the entire module. Thanks! Looking forward to making your labors available for others to take advantage of. -Troy. Dave Hall wrote: > I tried > > $$$Acts 1:3-5; Acts 1:6-8 > > > and that worked just fine. > > Actually I generated Calvin's commentary on Acts in imp format and then used > "imp2vs" to create the rawcom module and it worked! So, with a bit more > fiddling with my script I'll regenerate the whole mod in imp format. > > I'll email when that's done and I look it over. > > Thanks for the quick response. > > - Dave > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Troy A. Griffitts [mailto:scribe@crosswire.org] > Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 2:16 PM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Beginning help question - Calvin's > Commentaries > > > Dave, > > if you have the test programs, parsetest should show you if you have a > valid range. Something like: > > parsetest "mat 1:1-17;lk 3:23-38" > > should show that this is valid, and you can assume that anything > parsetest recognizes will be treated the same way in a $$$ imp key, so: > > $$$mat 1:1-17;lk 3:23-38 > > > SHOULD work, but I can't guarantee it. If it doesn't, we should fix it. > If you try it and it does, let us know so we can tell others with > confidence :) > > -Troy. > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 6 22:22:03 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Hugo van der Kooij) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 23:22:03 +0100 (CET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: jude In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > I have started Jude. Please check some verses and give some comments. .... Wouldn't it make sense to host a mailinglist for the documents stuff. I can not help out in any way when it comes to Latin or Hebrew. And I guess people who are more into programming and packaging will neither. (The occasional programming rev. is more an exception to the rule. ;-) On the other hand people working on the documents will not be programming or anything like it. So to me this sounds like we need to split up this list. Hugo. -- All email sent to me is bound to the rules described on my homepage. hvdkooij@vanderkooij.org http://hvdkooij.xs4all.nl/ Don't meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are subtle and quick to anger. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 7 00:25:34 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Will Thimbleby) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 00:25:34 +0000 Subject: [sword-devel] MacSword? In-Reply-To: <2563FFB2-095D-11D7-B3C0-0050E4D9A408@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <66DF1010-097A-11D7-B413-003065B2931A@york.ac.uk> Yep, You can grab MacSword at http://www.heathmoor.plus.com/macsword/. It's a Mac OS X only program. If you have any problems, email me. Will Thimbleby On Friday, December 6, 2002, at 08:56 pm, Mike & Amy wrote: > I noticed the other day someone mentioned something about "MacSword." > Is it available for download or is this something in the works for a > future time? I just discovered the SWORD project a couple weeks ago so > much of this is new to me. Thanks. > > Amy > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 7 01:40:07 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (nicc-lists email addy) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 12:40:07 +1100 Subject: [sword-devel] NRSV on ftp.crosswire.cx In-Reply-To: <3DF0FE65.C18ED246@ieee.org> Message-ID: Hi there Matthew. Yes, it has been noticed but so far noone has stepped up to the task of looking into it, or fixing it (as far as I'm aware -- I reported the problem many months ago, but have been unable to find time to look into it further)... if you're up to it, please look into it some more and see where the problem is -- our module, or the source we used, and then act on that... :) thanks! :) ybic nic... :) On Saturday, Dec 7, 2002, at 06:45 Australia/Sydney, Matthew Donadio wrote: > I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, and I can't find my > link > to the mailing list archive, so... > > It looks like the NRSV module in ftp.crosswire.cx:/pub/sword/betaraw is > munged. A bunch of books on the NT are missing the first verse: > Galations through 3 John seem to have the problem. > > If this hasn't been noticed yet, let me know and I will investigate it > some more. > > -- > Matthew Donadio (m.p.donadio@ieee.org) > > "Morality may keep you out of jail, but it takes the blood of Christ to keep you out of Hell." -- Charles Spurgeon ------------------------------------------------- Interested in finding out more about God, Jesus, Christianity and "the meaning of life"? Visit http://www.christianity.net.au ------------------------------------------------- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 8 01:01:27 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 18:01:27 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] MacSword? References: <2563FFB2-095D-11D7-B3C0-0050E4D9A408@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3DF299E7.1020006@crosswire.org> Amy, It seems many people are interested and confused about MacSword. We've not done a very good job giving information about it on CrossWire's site. So, we've recently made MacSword our feature of the month at http://www.crosswire.org We hope to post more information shortly, but this should, at least, direct people to the right place. Thanks for commenting, -Troy. Mike & Amy wrote: > I noticed the other day someone mentioned something about "MacSword." > Is it available for download or is this something in the works for a > future time? I just discovered the SWORD project a couple weeks ago so > much of this is new to me. Thanks. > > Amy From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 8 19:28:38 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Martin Gruner) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:28:38 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] website trouble Message-ID: <200212082028.38486.mg.pub@gmx.net> http://www.crosswire.org/sword/index.jsp gives the following error atm: HTTP Status 500 - type Exception report message description The server encountered an internal error () that prevented it from fulfilling this request. exception org.apache.jasper.JasperException: Unable to compile class for JSP An error occurred at line: -1 in the jsp file: null Generated servlet error: [javac] Compiling 1 source file The system is out of resources. Consult the following stack trace for details. java.lang.OutOfMemoryError at org.apache.jasper.compiler.DefaultErrorHandler.javacError(Unknown Source) at org.apache.jasper.compiler.ErrorDispatcher.javacError(Unknown Source) at org.apache.jasper.compiler.Compiler.generateClass(Unknown Source) at org.apache.jasper.compiler.Compiler.compile(Unknown Source) at org.apache.jasper.JspCompilationContext.compile(Unknown Source) at org.apache.jasper.servlet.JspServletWrapper.service(Unknown Source) at org.apache.jasper.servlet.JspServlet.serviceJspFile(Unknown Source) at org.apache.jasper.servlet.JspServlet.service(Unknown Source) at javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java) at org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.internalDoFilter(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.doFilter(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardWrapperValve.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline$StandardPipelineValveContext.invokeNext(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContextValve.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline$StandardPipelineValveContext.invokeNext(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.authenticator.AuthenticatorBase.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline$StandardPipelineValveContext.invokeNext(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContext.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardHostValve.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline$StandardPipelineValveContext.invokeNext(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorDispatcherValve.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline$StandardPipelineValveContext.invokeNext(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorReportValve.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline$StandardPipelineValveContext.invokeNext(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardEngineValve.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline$StandardPipelineValveContext.invokeNext(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(Unknown Source) at org.apache.coyote.tomcat4.CoyoteAdapter.service(CoyoteAdapter.java:223) at org.apache.jk.server.JkCoyoteHandler.invoke(JkCoyoteHandler.java:256) at org.apache.jk.common.HandlerRequest.invoke(HandlerRequest.java:361) at org.apache.jk.common.ChannelSocket.invoke(ChannelSocket.java:563) at org.apache.jk.common.ChannelSocket.processConnection(ChannelSocket.java:535) at org.apache.jk.common.SocketConnection.runIt(ChannelSocket.java:638) at org.apache.tomcat.util.threads.ThreadPool$ControlRunnable.run(ThreadPool.java:533) at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:536) Apache Tomcat/4.1 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 8 20:30:43 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Keith Ralston) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:30:43 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: some words translated with a preposition In-Reply-To: <3DEE1D0C.9020407@one.net> Message-ID: I have a question for the list: in Heb 5:12 there is 'which {FI}be{Fi}' ... /what/ is _which_ supposed to be marked with? If I understand your question, you need to tag the word "which" in the following phrase: _ye_have_need_that_one_teach_you_again_which_{FI}be{Fi}_the_first_principles_of_the_oracles_of_God Coming from the Greek phrase: PALIN KREIAN EXETE TOU DIDASKEIN hUMAS TINA TA STOIXEIA THS ARXHS TWN LOGIWN THEOU παλιν χρειαν εχετε του διδασκειν υµας τινα τα στοιχεια της αρχης των λογιων του θεου I believe that TINA satisfies your requirement. Let me know if this helps. Keith > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Benjamin Norman > Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 9:20 AM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: Re: [sword-devel] kjv2003: some words translated with a > preposition > > > mea culpa, > > Having done a few chapters since this verse and having reviewed my Greek > grammar book for exactly this question: 'than' should go with the > genitive word, as was your first inclination :). I will change this, > thanks for bringing that to my attention. I would be interested in any > further issues in my proofing of Hebrews so if you want something more > to do, why not second proof any green chapters on the status page? > (hopefully you won't find much more in mine after chapter 2 but if you > do so much the better, I can be humble about it O:) > > LIST READERS WANTING TO HELP WITH KJV2003: > This goes for all you other lurkers out there not feeling able to take > responsibility for a whole book or chapter. The Greek to English leaves > a lot of room for discussion and I don't mind being peer reviewed :) > especially if it means a better more useful tool for others, in fact I > want it. I have second guessed myself much along the way (ie should > non-declined words like the Hebrew words in Greek {like melchisedek} be > tagged with English prepositions like 'of'... which later examples > indicates yes, otherwise you get into strange situations) ... if you > want to review and document the norms we all are using for use in the > guidelines to help others while you are at it /even better/! > > I have a question for the list: in Heb 5:12 there is 'which {FI}be{Fi}' > ... /what/ is _which_ supposed to be marked with? Nothing I tried to > match it to with seemed right, and I left it unmarked until further > inspiration. So far it has stumped Troy and myself (sorry Troy ;). > > humbly yours, > Benjamin > > > Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > > I noticed that in Heb 1:4 "kreittoon toon aggeloon" is tagged so that > > "kreittoon" is "better than" and "toon aggeloon" is "the angels". First > > I thought that it was a mistake. After all "than" is included only when > > the substantive is in genitive. but then I noticed I have a similar > > problem in Jude. In v. 24 "katenoopion" is "in the presence of" even in > > the dictionary. However, "of" belongs to it only in some circumstances > > and thus would belong to "glory". > > > > So, which one is better? I would add "of" to "glory". > > > > Sincerely Yours, > > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland > > > > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 8 20:32:38 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Keith Ralston) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:32:38 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: "tina" in heb 5:12 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One should be tagged with the infinitive. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Eeli Kaikkonen > Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 5:07 PM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: Re: [sword-devel] kjv2003: "tina" in heb 5:12 > > > On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Benjamin Norman wrote: > > > genitive word, as was your first inclination :). I will change this, > > Sounds reasonable. I will add "of" to "glory". > > > I have a question for the list: in Heb 5:12 there is 'which {FI}be{Fi}' > > ... /what/ is _which_ supposed to be marked with? Nothing I tried to > > match it to with seemed right, and I left it unmarked until further > > inspiration. So far it has stumped Troy and myself (sorry Troy ;). > > > > So two blind need one who can lead them ;) > > UBS Greek New Testament tells that "tina/", accent on the second > syllable, is not very certain. Byzantine text has "ti/na". BAGD says > that "ti, ti/na" can be used "as a substitute for the relative" > (meaning 1 b dzeta). So "tina" is not "that one" but "which". "One" > means that "one teaches" and "one" is implied from context. Maybe it > should be tagged with "teach". > > Let me fall into ditch if I am wrong. > > Sincerely Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 8 20:37:24 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Keith Ralston) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:37:24 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: <3DEF832E.40903@crosswire.org> Message-ID: The article hO functions as a relative pronoun in this sentence. You should tag "who" with "hO". I realize this goes against our consensus on articles. However, the article is used for more than just indicating arthorous nouns, as we see in this verse. This should solve your problem of multiple tags (at least for now). > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Troy A. Griffitts > Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 10:48 AM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: Re: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? > > > Eeli, > Leave a note, we'll tag it manually. It's much easier to > hit these few > cases manually than modify the software to allow multiple splits. > Thanks for asking. > > -Troy. > > > > Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > > In Rev 1:9 there is "kai adelfos hymoon" which is translated "who also > > am your brother". I think that "adelfos" is "who am brother", but then > > it should be split twice because of "also" and "your". How to solve > > this? > > > > Sincerely Yours, > > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland > > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 8 20:44:43 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Keith Ralston) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:44:43 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: An old topic, infinitive/participle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My question was regarding the and that had been added between the verbs in the infinitive and the participle. Of course, to belongs with un loose, that is the infinitive. Where does the conjunction belong? As I am observing the KJV translation style, I am thinking the conjunction should be tagged with the participle. They seem to translate the participle with this style in many places. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Eeli Kaikkonen > Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 1:44 PM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: An old topic, infinitive/participle > > > Keith Ralston asked about Mark 1:7 some time ago. I had a similar > problem. I think that in Mark the basic meaning is "I'm not worthy to > unloose". "kupsas" or participle generally - not in this case > particularly - may mean e.g. "after stooping down", "stooping down at > the same time" or "because of stooping down" or even "regardless of > the fact that I stooped down". In this case "kupsas" tells under what > circumstances the unloosing happens. > > Therefore I would tag "stoop down and" and "to unloose". > > Sincerely Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Mon Dec 9 16:41:08 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (John Gardner) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:41:08 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I too believe in an in errant scripture. And that I truly have the word of God. At the same time, I don't think we can know which "original" text is the absolute correct one ( 1:1 word correspondence with the original letter penned by by the original authors). Or the translation. I don't believe that I must have the perfect original text or the perfect translation. And what I am reacting against is this sort of fear that unless I have all those things I can't function as Christian. No, I feel more a need for an obedient perfect heart than I do for perfect texts and translation. In my way of thinking, people who have to have everything completely "untainted" by man really reveal unbelief in the all sufficiency of God. This God who is able to sovereignly bring the promised Messiah via the lineage of a harlot! I am not a language scholar. I guess what I meant by Christ using the septuagint is that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John quote Christ and I believe those quotes are from the septuagint. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of porton@narod.ru > Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 4:06 PM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: Re: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? > > > > The scriptures actually address these issues. > > 1) Christ himself (and the apostles) quoted the septuagint (as > opposed to > > the original hebrew) as authoritative. > > Jesus Christ himself never quoted septuagint (except of probably > rare cases > when He spoke with Greeks). > > Apostles in The Authoritative Texts really quoted septugiant, but > > 1. They quoted only some fragments of septugiant, not all of it. > > 2. AFAIK (I haven't yet checked, if I mistaken correct me.) the > quotes from > septugiant in NT are not literal but sometimes somehow changed. > This does not > add authority to septugiant. > > 3. BIBLE NEVER MISTAKES, BUT Paul epistles utterly CONTRADICT (!!) to > Apostol's Acts speaking in Bible about whether people who was > with Paul heard > voice but not seen light or vice verse. But that place when Paul > speaks the > preaching it is a quoted (by Luke) speaking, not a direct saying > of Bible, > Paul surely messed here. Bible never mistakes (as opposed to man's who > participated in its writing such as Paul) and never contradicts > to itself: The > correct is version of the Paul's epistle (where Paul is > mistakeless co-author > with God, while in Acts the co-author is Luke and Paul isn't and > Paul mistakes > in preaching). So, you have no foundation to refer to sayings of > apostles as > authoritative, even reverse, we all mistaken. > > > 2) Everything WE do is mixed with ourselves, whether it is preaching, > > giving, singing, or praying. Yet it the scriptures teach us that for > > Christ's sake, they are accepted. Even when imperfect (and > they always are) > > in themselves. > > I don't know this teaching. I believe in ZERO errors of any kinds > in Bible. > -- > Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Mon Dec 9 17:56:01 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Fred Laxton) Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 12:56:01 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] MacSword? References: <2563FFB2-095D-11D7-B3C0-0050E4D9A408@earthlink.net> <3DF299E7.1020006@crosswire.org> Message-ID: <3DF4D931.4060408@laxton.net> Excellent! I first heard about it on this list a week or two(?) ago, and thought I knew nearly all of the free software bible programs out there - but I had never heard of MacSword. I tried it and it works great. Thanks for updating the crosswire site. Fred Troy A. Griffitts wrote: > Amy, > It seems many people are interested and confused about MacSword. > We've not done a very good job giving information about it on > CrossWire's site. So, we've recently made MacSword our feature of the > month at http://www.crosswire.org We hope to post more information > shortly, but this should, at least, direct people to the right place. > > Thanks for commenting, > -Troy. > -- -- Fred Laxton My contact information: http://infotechdesign.net/my_contact_information.htm Powered by Yellow Dog Linux and Mandrake Linux From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 05:09:41 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Russell) Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 21:09:41 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DF57715.2010507@u.washington.edu> John Gardner wrote: >I too believe in an in errant scripture. And that I truly have the word of >God. At the same time, I don't think we can know which "original" text is >the absolute correct one ( 1:1 word correspondence with the original letter >penned by by the original authors). Or the translation. I don't believe that >I must have the perfect original text or the perfect translation. And what >I am reacting against is this sort of fear that unless I have all those >things I can't function as Christian. No, I feel more a need for an >obedient perfect heart than I do for perfect texts and translation. In my >way of thinking, people who have to have everything completely "untainted" >by man really reveal unbelief in the all sufficiency of God. This God who is >able to sovereignly bring the promised Messiah via the lineage of a harlot! > >I am not a language scholar. I guess what I meant by Christ using the >septuagint is that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John quote Christ and I believe >those quotes are from the septuagint. > > Well as far as i am concerned, this issue has nothing to do with fear. For future reference: when you are discussing and issue with someone, try not to color the argument with emotionally manipulative words like "fear" when no one has expressed such an emotion. This is a way to make the other argument sound bad, but it is neither fair nor logical nor honest. ;) Christians often use their concept of "faith" as a license to discount anything that might shed doubt on their beliefs, right or wrong. The issue is about scholastic freedom and completeness, and not about how much faith has someone who wants the original text. The argument against someone who seeks that, on whatever basis, sounds a lot more like fear: fear that there could be dissent about the traditional text (not original) or some other issue that has, comfortably, not been stirred. Well, techincally this thread is a dead issue :). There really are more important issues out there, and i am OK with just having a filter to turn off the vowels. I think that is enough. Also: i know that compromises must be made, so even if this issue was not "settled" for me, i would move on anyway. I only wanted to take this time to encourage Christians to not act like all other religions which defend themselves against the wrong things in the wrong ways. Muslims would make all of the same claims you just made, and should i then accept them? Basing the correctness of any modern text, institution, or doctrine on the concept that "God is sufficient to make sure everything works right, therefore, i know that this is right, because God would have made it so" is a very fallacious line of reasoning which must be rejected because it is neither logical nor unique in all the religions of the world (who is an unbeliever to believe? they all attribute their "holy" things to their gods!). Furthermore, there is plenty of proof that the system has failed time and time again, and proof even in Jesus' words themselves that we continue to fail God and mess things up ("shall I find faith?", "few there be"), and we are not His "Kingdom", for that has not yet come. God's Kingdom would not be so divided, so corrupt, or so murderous (in reference to The "Church" as it once existed for hundreds of years -- the only major institution of Christianity, and certainly the official one -- the early to present Catholic Church). I don't put my trust in man as having gotten everything or even MOST things correct; not even those men that claim so, especially since they are all from different religions with different gods! But this is not a fear. This is just facing the facts as i see them. The truth is to be found by a careful study of Jesus' words and the prophet's words, with fresh eyes, assuming NO doctrines to be true. I just thought i would clear that up. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 12:09:26 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:09:26 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: An old topic, infinitive/participle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: > My question was regarding the and that had been added between the verbs in > > Therefore I would tag "stoop down and" and "to unloose". If I understood right, I already answered the question. I would add "and" to participle. Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 13:48:41 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:48:41 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: > The article hO functions as a relative pronoun in this sentence. You should Do you have any proof for that? Moulton says in his grammar (syntax) that "There is no instance of the article as a reletive pronoun in the NT" (page 37). Nor does BAGD give it that meaning. Is that possible in Koine generally? If it is, then it might be so because our TR text adds "kai" which is not in USB NT and the syntax might be different. Is there anyone amongst us who really knows or is this just guessing? I don't know how competent you others are. I'm just an amateur. > > Leave a note, we'll tag it manually. It's much easier to I still leave it untagged with a note unless someone proves otherwise. > > > In Rev 1:9 there is "kai adelfos hymoon" which is translated "who also Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 14:11:59 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (David's Mailing List and Spam Receiver) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:11:59 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc Message-ID: <200212100912.00489.davidslists@gmx.net> I was wondering if there was going to be any support for possibly making modules that contain maps or images or something anytime soon? -- Davids Mailing List And Spam Receiver Keeping me (relatively) spam free since 2002 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 14:23:42 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:23:42 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I also checked NKJV for Rev 1:9. It translates "I, John, both your brother and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom..." There is no relative "who" there. Maybe the translators of the original KJV just had different view about this kind of syntax. Even if they made a mistake, we should find out what they thought and tag the words accordingly. Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 14:40:07 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Glassey) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:40:07 -0000 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: <200212100912.00489.davidslists@gmx.net> Message-ID: <3DF5FCC7.4939.626EA29@localhost> as soon as anyone that has that itch writes it ;) anyone? daniel On 10 Dec 2002 at 9:11, David's Mailing List and Spam sent forth the message: > I was wondering if there was going to be any support for possibly making > modules that contain maps or images or something anytime soon? > > -- > Davids Mailing List And Spam Receiver > Keeping me (relatively) spam free since 2002 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 15:19:12 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 20:19:12 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: Message from "David's Mailing List and Spam Receiver" of "Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:11:59 EST." <200212100912.00489.davidslists@gmx.net> References: <200212100912.00489.davidslists@gmx.net> Message-ID: > I was wondering if there was going to be any support for possibly making > modules that contain maps or images or something anytime soon? I suggest just to add directory /usr/(local)/sahre/sword/img, put there (in subdirs) images and add opening images in external viewers for Linux (such as Electric Eues), when clicked by an image hyperlink in HTMl/ThML/... -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 15:37:24 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (David's Mailing List and Spam Receiver) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:37:24 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: References: <200212100912.00489.davidslists@gmx.net> Message-ID: <200212101037.25132.davidslists@gmx.net> On Tuesday 10 December 2002 10:19 am, porton@narod.ru wrote: > > I was wondering if there was going to be any support for possibly making > > modules that contain maps or images or something anytime soon? > > I suggest just to add directory /usr/(local)/sahre/sword/img, put there (in > subdirs) images and add opening images in external viewers for Linux (such > as Electric Eues), when clicked by an image hyperlink in HTMl/ThML/... Hmmmmm.... But wouldn't the ability to annotate the maps also be good? Link to verses about the area or perhaps add cultural or other types of notes so that people who aren't intimately familiar with the biblical area know what's going on and those that are maybe learning something new? -- Davids Mailing List And Spam Receiver Keeping me (relatively) spam free since 2002 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 15:53:55 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Mike Sangrey) Date: 10 Dec 2002 10:53:55 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1039535637.30496.112.camel@sojurn.lns.pa.us> I apologize if I've added to the confusion in something I said which wasn't clear. Anyway, Moulton's statement surprised me, so I looked up some things in Robertson's big tome. He mentions that "Moulton finds several examples in late papyri of hO as relative," so hO as relative is fairly common in the Koine. Moulton is claiming, though, it doesn't occur in the NT. Robertson also mentions a scholar named Mayser as inclined to regard hO KAI as relative. He also mentions that hO KAI was very common in NT times with what he calls "double names". He cites Acts 13:9 where we have "Saul, also Paul". I think the issue really boils down to more of a translation issue than a "how does one tag the Greek text" issue. It's about the differences in language; that is, between the original Greek language and how we in English do the same thing. In Greek they didn't need to use a relative to do what John does in Rev. 1:9. They could simply say, EGW IWANNHS, hO [KAI] ADELFOS hUMWN. How do we say the same meaning in English? Well, we very likely would use the relative pronoun `who'. So, how do you tag it then? As an article because that is the syntax the original author is using? Or as a relative, since that is the meaning the original author is using? Robertson cites Rev. 1:4,8; 11:17 and says, "One either has to say that here hO is used as a relative or that it is a relative. It all comes to the same in the end." And that really sums up the issue here. Some Sword users will want searches on syntax (that is, a focus on the FORMS). Others will want to search based on semantics (that is, a focus on MEANING). You need both sets of tags and they need to be cleanly seperated--something no Greek grammars have been able to do. My recommendation, for what it might be worth: tag it as an article since we don't have a clean separation between syntactic and semantic tags. On Tue, 2002-12-10 at 08:48, Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > On Sun, 8 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: > > > The article hO functions as a relative pronoun in this sentence. You should > > Do you have any proof for that? Moulton says in his grammar (syntax) > that "There is no instance of the article as a reletive pronoun in the > NT" (page 37). Nor does BAGD give it that meaning. Is that possible in > Koine generally? If it is, then it might be so because our TR text adds > "kai" which is not in USB NT and the syntax might be different. > > Is there anyone amongst us who really knows or is this just guessing? I > don't know how competent you others are. I'm just an amateur. > > > > Leave a note, we'll tag it manually. It's much easier to > > I still leave it untagged with a note unless someone proves otherwise. > > > > > In Rev 1:9 there is "kai adelfos hymoon" which is translated "who also > > Sincerely Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland -- Mike Sangrey msangrey@BlueFeltHat.org Landisburg, Pa. "The first one last wins." "A net of highly cohesive details reveals the truth." From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 16:41:52 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:41:52 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? Message-ID: <20021210164156.2699.qmail@mailshell.com> I could find no declaration of theological affiliation on the SWORD project page, though Crosswire certainly seems Protestant. So, I'm kind of scratching my head wondering why some of the contributors are: 1) assuming that their fellow contributors are like-minded theologically and 2) "witnessing" to anyone who comes along and shows themselves not to share their theological position. I rather thought that the purpose of the project was development of the software, which is an applied technological domain and not a theological one. Discussion of how theology and technology may inform and/or interact with one another might be better served on another list--as it's an interesting topic. That said, I'll comment on the following, with absolutely no attempt at staying on-topic, so be forewarned! :) Daniel Russell wrote: > God's Kingdom would not be so divided, so corrupt, or so > murderous (in reference to The "Church" as it once existed for > hundreds of years -- the only major institution of Christianity, and > certainly the official one -- the early to present Catholic > Church). The "early to present Catholic Church", by which I assume you mean the Roman Catholic Church is not in fact the "only major institution of Christianity". In the 11th century A.D. Rome split from the other 4 sister churches--the Patriarchates of Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople, Alexandria--in what we refer to as the "Great Schism". These Patriarchates still exist and have grown into the following churches: Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Russia, Georgia, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Greece, Albania, Poland, the Czech Lands and Slovakia, Sinai, Finland, Japan, Ukraine, and the Orthodox Church in America. Bishop Kallistos Ware's history of the Orthodox Church is available at this link if you're interested in more of the history: http://www.synaxis.org/sschool/Orthodox_Church.html > The truth is to be found by a careful study of Jesus' words and the > prophet's words, with fresh eyes, assuming NO doctrines to be true. This is a rather odd statement, indeed! Assume no doctrine to be true? This places a rather large amount of reliance upon personal insight and interpretation. But interpretation in the Church has always been corporate. What about 2 Thessalonians 2:15--"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." Or how about Peter 1:20--"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." After all, in Acts 15:28 "the apostles, the elders, and the whole church" wrote, "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us..." and not "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost and me". And furthermore, Matthew 18:20--"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Yes, we are given the Spirit for understanding, but it is always within the framework of the entire Body of Christ, the Church and not individually. This whole issue of obsessive concern with textual analysis is endemic to Protestant Christianity which abandoned itself to the Solas, alienating itself thereby, from the guidance of the Fathers and Holy Tradition. Orthodox are at best bemused with all the concern for proof texts and modern scholastic textual criticism and analysis. Not that Orthodox ignore it or see no value in it, but we see it as very much a secondary tool. We believe that Christ's teachings have been preserved by the Apostles and the Church, against which [that is, the Church] the gates of Hades shall never prevail. We insist that the scripture is only properly understood within the framework of the life of the Church no matter how authoritative the text you are reading or how open your eyes may be. Ephrem From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 17:39:52 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (David's Mailing List and Spam Receiver) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:39:52 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: <3DF5FCC7.4939.626EA29@localhost> References: <3DF5FCC7.4939.626EA29@localhost> Message-ID: <200212101239.52344.davidslists@gmx.net> On Tuesday 10 December 2002 09:40 am, Daniel Glassey wrote: > as soon as anyone that has that itch writes it ;) anyone? So I guess I'll end up doing it then eventually. I'm wondering though how much of this should be left up to front ends and how much should be handled at the library level. -- Davids Mailing List And Spam Receiver Keeping me (relatively) spam free since 2002 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 18:10:53 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Jerry Hastings) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:10:53 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: <20021210164156.2699.qmail@mailshell.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021210110010.00a6a500@mail.dancris.com> At 11:41 AM 12/10/2002 -0500, ephrem_sword@tuirgin.mailshell.com wrote: >.... Discussion of how theology and technology may inform >and/or interact with one another might be better served on another >list--as it's an interesting topic.... The call to end this off topic thread has already been made by one who has the power to make it so. BTW: Interesting combination of ideas, the "Great Schism", and "corporate" interpretation. Jerry From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 19:02:47 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Patrick Narkinsky) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:02:47 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: <200212101239.52344.davidslists@gmx.net> Message-ID: Thus spake "David's Mailing List and Spam Receiver"> : > So I guess I'll end up doing it then eventually. I'm wondering though how much > of this should be left up to front ends and how much should be handled at the > library level. For what it's worth, I thought about looking at doing an atlas some time ago. At the time, I was not able to find any high-quality, freely available maps to supply the data. Not to say that there are none - but I would check for the data before I wrote the software. Patrick -- Patrick Narkinsky - Apprentice Pastor, Hope Community Church - 757-652-9540 "Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - Chesterton From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 19:04:35 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Martin Gruner) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 20:04:35 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: <200212101239.52344.davidslists@gmx.net> References: <3DF5FCC7.4939.626EA29@localhost> <200212101239.52344.davidslists@gmx.net> Message-ID: <200212102004.35158.mg.pub@gmx.net> > So I guess I'll end up doing it then eventually. I'm wondering though how > much of this should be left up to front ends and how much should be handled > at the library level. Yeah! Go ahead! I am not sure though as to how easy it would be. Vector or pixel based or both? What about zoom/detail levels? What about turning map features on/off? We should probably look at existing solutions. Does Logos have a system like this? Maybe there is some opensource project that we could use for this purpose? It would definitely be awesome to have support for Maps. It is a major undertaking though. Martin From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 19:06:55 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Russell) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:06:55 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021210110010.00a6a500@mail.dancris.com> References: <4.2.0.58.20021210110010.00a6a500@mail.dancris.com> Message-ID: <3DF63B4F.4090200@u.washington.edu> Jerry: -- i'll make no further comment on this thread. Patrick and i have taken the issue off the list. I think (hope) it's just a friendly conversation about ideas. :) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 19:34:36 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Lamar Owen) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:34:36 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: <200212102004.35158.mg.pub@gmx.net> References: <3DF5FCC7.4939.626EA29@localhost> <200212101239.52344.davidslists@gmx.net> <200212102004.35158.mg.pub@gmx.net> Message-ID: <200212101434.36748.lamar.owen@wgcr.org> On Tuesday 10 December 2002 14:04, Martin Gruner wrote: > > So I guess I'll end up doing it then eventually. I'm wondering though how > > much of this should be left up to front ends and how much should be > > handled at the library level. > We should probably look at existing solutions. Does Logos have a system > like this? Maybe there is some opensource project that we could use for > this purpose? There are a number of mapping packages out there, with various levels of complexity. See the www.freegis.org site for links to many mapping software packages. I use a couple of mapping packages here -- GRASS, and GMT. GRASS is overkill for simple maps, though -- it is a full-scale Geographic Information System. GMT might be a good fit, and produces PostScript output. It can do various projections, zooms, scales, rotations, colorings, etc., given relatively simple vector and raster format files. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 20:11:19 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Patrick Narkinsky) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:11:19 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: <200212101434.36748.lamar.owen@wgcr.org> Message-ID: Thus spake "Lamar Owen"> : > There are a number of mapping packages out there, with various levels of > complexity. See the www.freegis.org site for links to many mapping software > packages. I use a couple of mapping packages here -- GRASS, and GMT. GRASS > is overkill for simple maps, though -- it is a full-scale Geographic > Information System. GMT might be a good fit, and produces PostScript output. > It can do various projections, zooms, scales, rotations, colorings, etc., > given relatively simple vector and raster format files. I guess I still see this as a major scholarly undertaking. In many cases, the locations of various towns are matters of conjecture, not fact. (e.g. Jericho.) Then, you've got to account for the way Palestine looked at various times. I suppose you could get a good Biblical atlas and see where they put the towns, then put them in the same place on your map, but just having a modern map is not enough. Patrick -- Patrick Narkinsky - Apprentice Pastor, Hope Community Church "Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - Chesterton From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 20:37:02 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Chris Little) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 13:37:02 -0700 (MST) Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: <200212100912.00489.davidslists@gmx.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, David's Mailing List and Spam Receiver wrote: > I was wondering if there was going to be any support for possibly making > modules that contain maps or images or something anytime soon? Two brief points: 1) Images are handled currently in Sword (the library) but are not dealt with in any of the front ends. Consult the mailing list logs for details. It's clean, modular, and uses directories relative to the module path along with ThML image tags. (Currently I think ThML is the only markup we support that could handle images.) There once were some maps for a module, but I think they've disappeared. I'll make fixing the Catholic Encyclopedia module and incorporating images a priority so we have something to test (as soon as I finish my semester). 2) We don't want bloated GIS libraries or anything like that. Small is good. We want to remain portable, remember. But that said, it would be nice to add some coordinate capabilties that deal with various projections so that we can do overlays, if possible. --Chris From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 20:30:25 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 01:30:25 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] clean bible or bad phantasy? In-Reply-To: Message from Jerry Hastings of "Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:10:53 MST." <4.2.0.58.20021210110010.00a6a500@mail.dancris.com> References: <4.2.0.58.20021210110010.00a6a500@mail.dancris.com> Message-ID: > At 11:41 AM 12/10/2002 -0500, ephrem_sword@tuirgin.mailshell.com wrote: > >.... Discussion of how theology and technology may inform > >and/or interact with one another might be better served on another > >list--as it's an interesting topic.... > > The call to end this off topic thread has already been made by one who has > the power to make it so. Yes, certainly I am going to create a special mailing list for discussion about so called (by me) clean Bible. Just wait release of my first milestone program (Please, please, don't discuss it before you've seen the release!) However if you like I can create this special theology list earlier. -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 21:00:12 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Lamar Owen) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:00:12 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200212101600.12581.lamar.owen@wgcr.org> On Tuesday 10 December 2002 15:11, Patrick Narkinsky wrote: > Thus spake "Lamar Owen"> : > > There are a number of mapping packages out there, with various levels of > > complexity. See the www.freegis.org site for links to many mapping > > software packages. I use a couple of mapping packages here -- GRASS, and > I guess I still see this as a major scholarly undertaking. In many cases, > the locations of various towns are matters of conjecture, not fact. (e.g. > Jericho.) Then, you've got to account for the way Palestine looked at > various times. I suppose you could get a good Biblical atlas and see where > they put the towns, then put them in the same place on your map, but just > having a modern map is not enough. GRASS and GMT both handle any map files you throw at them -- they are not tied into any given 'modern' map. However, they do allow overlaying and such things, as well as user customization of the maps. The full GMT distribution in binary RPM form is 17MB currently -- however, one can pick and choose the programs one needs, as GMT has a large number of programs. GRASS likewise could be trimmed down -- from 33MB to less, I'm sure. The flexibility of both packages is incredible, though. And again, these are just two packages I have personal experience with -- there are many others listed on the FreeGIS page. GIS is about tools to assist in the major scholarly undertaking of mapping, not about regurgitating prepared maps from various sources. Whether that is a SWORD issue or not is up to interpretation. Personally, it would be nice to have an interface to a GIS, with some mapping data available, but not in the core SWORD distribution, unless you do want just simple PostScript or other format images to be displayed. PostScript is good simply because the interpreter is to be found already for virtually all SWORD-supported platforms, in the form of GhostScript. PostScript is by nature scalable, rotatable, and in general highly mungable. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 21:39:29 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Hugo van der Kooij) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:39:29 +0100 (CET) Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: <200212101600.12581.lamar.owen@wgcr.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Lamar Owen wrote: > Whether that is a SWORD issue or not is up to interpretation. Personally, it > would be nice to have an interface to a GIS, with some mapping data > available, but not in the core SWORD distribution, unless you do want just > simple PostScript or other format images to be displayed. PostScript is good > simply because the interpreter is to be found already for virtually all > SWORD-supported platforms, in the form of GhostScript. PostScript is by > nature scalable, rotatable, and in general highly mungable. Just an issue to think of: Is the fileformat an open standard? To me at least GIF is a no-go issue. Another issue is that (small) images would be a very usefull addition when it comes to comments and such. You could spend a booklet to describe something which might be made clear with just a simple picture. I'm sorry I can't scratch the itch. I just don't happen to be a programmer. (At least I don't want to call me a programmer.) Hugo. -- All email sent to me is bound to the rules described on my homepage. hvdkooij@vanderkooij.org http://hvdkooij.xs4all.nl/ Don't meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are subtle and quick to anger. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 21:50:07 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Steve Lorimer) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 13:50:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: <200212101239.52344.davidslists@gmx.net> Message-ID: <20021210215007.88781.qmail@web41008.mail.yahoo.com> I see the discussion has shifted to using an external map program - which is fine. However, internal image support would be nice for books that have pictures (not related to maps). Unfortunately I am not a programmer, or I would offer to help with some code. :) In Christ, Steve Lorimer --- David's Mailing List and Spam Receiver wrote: > On Tuesday 10 December 2002 09:40 am, Daniel Glassey > wrote: > > as soon as anyone that has that itch writes it ;) > anyone? > > So I guess I'll end up doing it then eventually. I'm > wondering though how much > of this should be left up to front ends and how much > should be handled at the > library level. > > -- > Davids Mailing List And Spam Receiver > Keeping me (relatively) spam free since 2002 Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 22:06:37 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 03:06:37 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:39:29 +0100." References: Message-ID: > On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Lamar Owen wrote: > > Just an issue to think of: Is the fileformat an open standard? To me at > least GIF is a no-go issue. Both PostScript and PDF are standards developed by Adobe which we are free to use. -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 22:20:04 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Steve Lorimer) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:20:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sword-devel] Materials use question In-Reply-To: <20021210215007.88781.qmail@web41008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20021210222004.2441.qmail@web41002.mail.yahoo.com> Please pardon my ignorance if I am asking this question in the wrong place. I contacted a source requesting permission to convert some of their OLB modules to Sword format. I received permission, but they asked about putting the Sword program/materials on a cd they were getting ready to produce. The cd would contain much more than just the Sword program and materials. How does this work? Thank you In Christ, Steve Lorimer Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 10 23:46:24 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Lamar Owen) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 18:46:24 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200212101846.24294.lamar.owen@wgcr.org> On Tuesday 10 December 2002 17:06, porton@narod.ru wrote: > > On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Lamar Owen wrote: > > Just an issue to think of: Is the fileformat an open standard? To me at > > least GIF is a no-go issue. > Both PostScript and PDF are standards developed by Adobe which we are free > to use. Please don't misattribute the quote to me; I didn't say to use GIF. PostScript is practically completely open, and encapsulated PostScript is something of a standard for graphics import. Everything can print to PostScript -- it's an ideal language for maps, since maps aren't images, they're graphics. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 11 01:14:25 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Steve Lorimer) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 17:14:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sword-devel] Question about markup language Message-ID: <20021211011425.59809.qmail@web41010.mail.yahoo.com> Could someone please tell me or point me in the direction of the imp formatting? Or, should I be using a different format? 1. Does it support italics, bold, etc. and what are the codes? 2. If a (commentary in this case) links to itself, how is that done? 3. Any other useful info along these lines. Thank you, In Christ, Steve Lorimer __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 11 02:28:06 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 02:28:06 GMT Subject: [sword-devel] Re: Maps, etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20021211022806.14157.qmail@mail.airnet.com.au> Second try - my first attempt bounced. Unfortunately I don't have the info at hand right now, but The Online Bible Software Site has some user-supplied modules for OLB that provide maps, and I think some other diagrams as well. (Plus, there was even a "movie" of the tabernacle.) This may be worth checking out. As for the format to use, PNG is free, and is well supported these days. Brian. Patrick Narkinsky writes: > Thus spake "David's Mailing List and Spam Receiver"> : > > > So I guess I'll end up doing it then eventually. I'm wondering though how much > > of this should be left up to front ends and how much should be handled at the > > library level. > > For what it's worth, I thought about looking at doing an atlas some time > ago. At the time, I was not able to find any high-quality, freely available > maps to supply the data. Not to say that there are none - but I would check > for the data before I wrote the software. > > Patrick > > -- > Patrick Narkinsky - Apprentice Pastor, Hope Community Church - 757-652-9540 > > "Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons > exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - Chesterton > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 11 03:03:31 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (David's Mailing List and Spam Receiver) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:03:31 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200212102203.31848.davidslists@gmx.net> On Tuesday 10 December 2002 03:37 pm, Chris Little wrote: > Two brief points: > > 1) Images are handled currently in Sword (the library) but are not dealt > with in any of the front ends. Consult the mailing list logs for details. > It's clean, modular, and uses directories relative to the module path > along with ThML image tags. (Currently I think ThML is the only markup we > support that could handle images.) Can I annotate these and perhaps make image maps out of them? For example click on Jerusalem on a 1st century Judea map and several can happen depending on how the module and/or front end is setup. A map of Jerusalem proper appears, or a link to a culture and customs book appears keyed to Jerusalem, or info about arechalogical dig, or a 3d projection of the terrain (more useful than you might think), or any other sort of annotation or commentary I want shows up. > There once were some maps for a module, but I think they've disappeared. > I'll make fixing the Catholic Encyclopedia module and incorporating images > a priority so we have something to test (as soon as I finish my semester). Yay, and I'm learning C++ next semester so maybe I can even help. :D > 2) We don't want bloated GIS libraries or anything like that. Small is > good. We want to remain portable, remember. But that said, it would be > nice to add some coordinate capabilties that deal with various > projections so that we can do overlays, if possible. Definitely. I mean how cool would it be to be able to tell the front end to overlay a modern map overtop of an ancient map so that you can see where things are relative and stuff. Then you can turn off those sometimes annoying "Present day boundries" lines in maps. -- Davids Mailing List And Spam Receiver Keeping me (relatively) spam free since 2002 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 11 01:54:16 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Keith Ralston) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 19:54:16 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: <1039535637.30496.112.camel@sojurn.lns.pa.us> Message-ID: Thanks for digging, Mike. I do not have Moulton or Robertson at home. I have Dana and Mantey who reference Robertson's page 68 when discussing this. I haven't had time to run to the library. I'm not sure about slicing so thinly between semantics and syntax. I agree with the general approach we've taken to the article. Our approach assumes the use of the article with a substantive. This is only a fraction of the article's usage. I do believe the article to have more flexibility than our rule allows. We should tag the exceptions. We should allow the Greek to do its thing. It isn't always as neat as we'd like it to be. That's my nickel's worth. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Mike Sangrey > Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 9:54 AM > To: Sword Development > Subject: RE: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? > > > I apologize if I've added to the confusion in something I said which > wasn't clear. > > Anyway, Moulton's statement surprised me, so I looked up some things in > Robertson's big tome. He mentions that "Moulton finds several examples > in late papyri of hO as relative," so hO as relative is fairly common in > the Koine. Moulton is claiming, though, it doesn't occur in the NT. > Robertson also mentions a scholar named Mayser as inclined to regard hO > KAI as relative. He also mentions that hO KAI was very common in NT > times with what he calls "double names". He cites Acts 13:9 where we > have "Saul, also Paul". > > I think the issue really boils down to more of a translation issue than > a "how does one tag the Greek text" issue. It's about the differences > in language; that is, between the original Greek language and how we in > English do the same thing. In Greek they didn't need to use a relative > to do what John does in Rev. 1:9. They could simply say, EGW IWANNHS, > hO [KAI] ADELFOS hUMWN. How do we say the same meaning in English? > Well, we very likely would use the relative pronoun `who'. So, how do > you tag it then? As an article because that is the syntax the original > author is using? Or as a relative, since that is the meaning the > original author is using? > > Robertson cites Rev. 1:4,8; 11:17 and says, "One either has to say that > here hO is used as a relative or that it is a relative. It all comes to > the same in the end." > > And that really sums up the issue here. Some Sword users will want > searches on syntax (that is, a focus on the FORMS). Others will want to > search based on semantics (that is, a focus on MEANING). You need both > sets of tags and they need to be cleanly seperated--something no Greek > grammars have been able to do. > > My recommendation, for what it might be worth: tag it as an article > since we don't have a clean separation between syntactic and semantic > tags. > > On Tue, 2002-12-10 at 08:48, Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > > On Sun, 8 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: > > > > > The article hO functions as a relative pronoun in this > sentence. You should > > > > Do you have any proof for that? Moulton says in his grammar (syntax) > > that "There is no instance of the article as a reletive pronoun in the > > NT" (page 37). Nor does BAGD give it that meaning. Is that possible in > > Koine generally? If it is, then it might be so because our TR text adds > > "kai" which is not in USB NT and the syntax might be different. > > > > Is there anyone amongst us who really knows or is this just guessing? I > > don't know how competent you others are. I'm just an amateur. > > > > > > Leave a note, we'll tag it manually. It's much easier to > > > > I still leave it untagged with a note unless someone proves otherwise. > > > > > > > In Rev 1:9 there is "kai adelfos hymoon" which is > translated "who also > > > > Sincerely Yours, > > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland > -- > Mike Sangrey > msangrey@BlueFeltHat.org > Landisburg, Pa. > "The first one last wins." > "A net of highly cohesive details reveals the truth." > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 11 04:35:39 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Rev. Michael Paul Johnson) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:35:39 +1000 Subject: [sword-devel] CD-ROM In-Reply-To: <3D7161DA.20306@crosswire.org> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021211142041.0207d4c8@mail.sil.org.pg> --=====================_22457682==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello, Troy! How is it going? Could I get you to send me at least one of the latest Sword Project CD? Downloads in Papua New Guinea are both expensive and very time-consuming. I could send you a check for what it costs (probably about $5 for everything) under separate cover if you tell me how much it is. Thanks! Michael & Lori Johnson SIL BOX 421 UKARUMPA 444 EHP PAPUA NEW GUINEA Rev. Michael Paul Johnson Servant of Jesus Christ mpj@eBible.org http://eBible.org/mpj/ --=====================_22457682==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Hello, Troy!

How is it going?

Could I get you to send me at least one of the latest Sword Project CD? Downloads in Papua New Guinea are both expensive and very time-consuming. I could send you a check for what it costs (probably about $5 for everything) under separate cover if you tell me how much it is. Thanks!

Michael & Lori Johnson
SIL BOX 421
UKARUMPA 444 EHP
PAPUA NEW GUINEA

Rev. Michael Paul Johnson
Servant of Jesus Christ
mpj@eBible.org
http://eBible.org/mpj/
--=====================_22457682==_.ALT-- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 11 05:01:11 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:01:11 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] CD-ROM References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021211142041.0207d4c8@mail.sil.org.pg> Message-ID: <3DF6C697.3070706@crosswire.org> Surely! Welcome back! I'll get some in the mail to you straight away. I was hoping you'd help us on the kjv2003 project :) We still have a bunch of chapters unassigned. -Troy. http://www.crosswire.org/sword/kjv2003/ Rev. Michael Paul Johnson wrote: > Hello, Troy! > > How is it going? > > Could I get you to send me at least one of the latest Sword Project CD? > Downloads in Papua New Guinea are both expensive and very > time-consuming. I could send you a check for what it costs (probably > about $5 for everything) under separate cover if you tell me how much it > is. Thanks! > > Michael & Lori Johnson > SIL BOX 421 > UKARUMPA 444 EHP > PAPUA NEW GUINEA > > > Rev. Michael Paul Johnson > Servant of Jesus Christ > mpj@eBible.org > http://eBible.org/mpj/ > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 11 06:00:59 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Rev. Michael Paul Johnson) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:00:59 +1000 Subject: [sword-devel] CD-ROM; GBF to XSEM In-Reply-To: <3DF6C697.3070706@crosswire.org> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021211142041.0207d4c8@mail.sil.org.pg> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021211154559.05615008@mail.sil.org.pg> --=====================_4912533==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 22:01 10-12-02 -0700, you wrote: >Surely! Welcome back! I'll get some in the mail to you straight away. Thanks! >I was hoping you'd help us on the kjv2003 project :) We still have a bunch of chapters unassigned. Alas, but not all worthy projects are projects that I should help with. I have my hands more than full enough with SIL software development, preaching, the beginnings of a radio project, the EBT web site, the World English Bible and World English Bible: Messianic Edition (AKA the Hebrew Names Version), some hobbies, and still having time to spend with my family. I think that the WEB and HNV work benefits you guys. I have been working mainly on the Old Testament, but also doing some recording (http://mp3.eBible.org/webaudio/) in my "spare" time. Besides, I'll try to feed back any glitches in the Tok Pisin (Melanesian Pidgin) Bible module if I find any. (I did see some, but wanted to see if they were in the latest distribution before I started work on feeding them back to you.) It is nice to have Bible study software with a Tok Pisin Bible in it, now that I live where it is spoken and know how to speak it myself. If anyone is interested in a GBF to XSEM (XML Scripture Encoding Model) converter written in C#, take a look at ftp://eBible.org/pub/new/gbf2xsem.zip (open source LGPL). Be blessed in Jesus' wonderful name! Rev. Michael Paul Johnson Servant of Jesus Christ mpj@eBible.org http://eBible.org/mpj/ --=====================_4912533==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 22:01 10-12-02 -0700, you wrote:

Surely! Welcome back! I'll get some in the mail to you straight away.

Thanks!

I was hoping you'd help us on the kjv2003 project :) We still have a bunch of chapters unassigned.

Alas, but not all worthy projects are projects that I should help with. I have my hands more than full enough with SIL software development, preaching, the beginnings of a radio project, the EBT web site, the World English Bible and World English Bible: Messianic Edition (AKA the Hebrew Names Version), some hobbies, and still having time to spend with my family. I think that the WEB and HNV work benefits you guys. I have been working mainly on the Old Testament, but also doing some recording (http://mp3.e= Bible.org/webaudio/) in my "spare" time. Besides, I'll try to feed back any glitches in the Tok Pisin (Melanesian Pidgin) Bible module if I find any. (I did see some, but wanted to see if they were in the latest distribution before I started work on feeding them back to you.) It is nice to have Bible study software with a Tok Pisin Bible in it, now that I live where it is spoken and know how to speak it myself.

If anyone is interested in a GBF to XSEM (XML Scripture Encoding Model) converter written in C#, take a look at ftp://e= Bible.org/pub/new/gbf2xsem.zip (open source LGPL).

Be blessed in Jesus' wonderful name!

Rev. Michael Paul Johnson
Servant of Jesus Christ
mpj@eBible.org
http://eBible.org/mpj/
--=====================_4912533==_.ALT-- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 11 08:29:29 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 01:29:29 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] new ISO Message-ID: <3DF6F769.9030005@crosswire.org> There's a new iso available at the usual place: ftp://ftp.crosswire.org/pub/sword/iso It's planning on going to the duplicators after I get some sleep and get there (about 10 hours after this message time). If you have a chance to test, please do so and report any issues that you find. Otherwise, enjoy. For God's Glory, -Troy. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 11 09:17:30 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:17:30 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: > I'm not sure about slicing so thinly between semantics and syntax. Meddling with semantics would be for experts only. With Greek/English syntax we have to worry about only handful of these difficulties. With semantics we would have ten discussions like this for every verse. This project is quite mechanic, but semantics is always interpretation. I would be interested in taggin real greek syntax (like whole sentences, relations of them etc.) but it would take couple of years of real studying first. > I agree > with the general approach we've taken to the article. Our approach assumes > the use of the article with a substantive. This is only a fraction of the > article's usage. I do believe the article to have more flexibility than our > rule allows. We must remember we are talkign about giving a tool for English reader to connect Greek/English words. Make it simple. Only rarely we have to take up a stand about syntax. > We should tag the exceptions. But how? In this case (Rev 1:9), would it be best to tag "ho kai" to "who also am"? It would be quite neutral about interpretion. At least more neutral than tagging the article to the relative pronoun. Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 11 10:28:21 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:28:21 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 10 Dec 2002 18:46:24 EST." <200212101846.24294.lamar.owen@wgcr.org> References: <200212101846.24294.lamar.owen@wgcr.org> Message-ID: > Please don't misattribute the quote to me; I didn't say to use GIF. > PostScript is practically completely open, and encapsulated PostScript is > something of a standard for graphics import. Everything can print to > PostScript -- it's an ideal language for maps, since maps aren't images, > they're graphics. We don't need namely encaspulated PostScript, this "encaspulation" is only for high quality typography. (However if we will use PostScript, better, yes, is encaspulated one.) I'm not sure whether PDF has analogous "encaspulation" features like PostScript, but as "encaspulation" is not important for us we in any case better to use PDF than PostScript (PDF is much smaller and faster). Free GhostScript (as well as some costly software from Adobe) can convert Postscript<->PDF, but does it AFAIK not very well, we need to check if enough well. Acrobat Reader or Xpdf (both free) can convert PDF->Postscript. P.S. For these who don't know: PDF and PS are formats intended for multipage images of book's pages and like. Many typographies use these. There are several freeware/opensource viewers for both formats. -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 11 12:49:54 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Gary Sims) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:49:54 +0000 Subject: [sword-devel] Bits of 1 Peter missing in RomCor Message-ID: <200212111249.54143.gary@garysims.co.uk> Hi, Using BibleTime I have just seen that half of the first chapter and the rest of 1 Peter are missing from the Cornilescu Version of the Romanian Bible. Could someone please check this for me. Is it a BibleTime problem? A problem with the module? Did I have a download problem? Thanks, Gary -- Gary Sims Vulcan, Brasov, Romania gary@garysims.co.uk gary.sims@rdslink.ro From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 12 02:10:32 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Keith Ralston) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 20:10:32 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > But how? hO tags "who" and "am". I have been tagging implied verbs with their subjects. KAI tags "also". I had placed the question of implied verbs to the group. No one responded. In each of these cases, I am comfortable with my method for handling the tags. I am looking for consensus in order that we might have consistency. > We must remember we are talkign about giving a tool for English reader > to connect Greek/English words. Make it simple. Only rarely we have to > take up a stand about syntax. Myself and many others interested in the project use it for research. I want it tagged correctly. The approach taken by the KJV interpreters is clear. They treated the article as a pronoun. However, it the consensus is to tag no articles, I will comply. > Meddling with semantics would be for experts only. You keep referring to experts. What is your criteria for an expert? > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Eeli Kaikkonen > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 3:18 AM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: RE: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? > > > On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: > > > I'm not sure about slicing so thinly between semantics and syntax. > > Meddling with semantics would be for experts only. With Greek/English > syntax we have to worry about only handful of these difficulties. With > semantics we would have ten discussions like this for every verse. This > project is quite mechanic, but semantics is always interpretation. I > would be interested in taggin real greek syntax (like whole sentences, > relations of them etc.) but it would take couple of years of real > studying first. > > > I agree > > with the general approach we've taken to the article. Our > approach assumes > > the use of the article with a substantive. This is only a > fraction of the > > article's usage. I do believe the article to have more > flexibility than our > > rule allows. > > We must remember we are talkign about giving a tool for English reader > to connect Greek/English words. Make it simple. Only rarely we have to > take up a stand about syntax. > > > We should tag the exceptions. > > But how? In this case (Rev 1:9), would it be best to tag "ho kai" to > "who also am"? It would be quite neutral about interpretion. At least > more neutral than tagging the article to the relative pronoun. > > > Sincerely Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 12 05:18:13 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 21:18:13 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? References: Message-ID: <3DF81C15.3090907@crosswire.org> The tagging rules for the article as stated in the guidelines states that in most simple cases in the Greek, where there is an article noun pair, we do not use the article tag for anything. There ARE instances in which the greek article tag IS used, and I think you both are speaking of such cases. I've used it a few time as well. Here is an example: ???? ????? ????? ?? ?????????... ALLA TOUTO ESTIN TO EIRHMENON... >But< ALLA >this< TOUTO >is< ESTIN >that< TO >which_was_spoken< EIRHMENON Let me know if you'd tag it differently. -Troy. Keith Ralston wrote: >>But how? >> >> >hO tags "who" and "am". I have been tagging implied verbs with their >subjects. KAI tags "also". > >I had placed the question of implied verbs to the group. No one responded. >In each of these cases, I am comfortable with my method for handling the >tags. I am looking for consensus in order that we might have consistency. > > > >>We must remember we are talkign about giving a tool for English reader >>to connect Greek/English words. Make it simple. Only rarely we have to >>take up a stand about syntax. >> >> > >Myself and many others interested in the project use it for research. I >want it tagged correctly. The approach taken by the KJV interpreters is >clear. They treated the article as a pronoun. However, it the consensus is >to tag no articles, I will comply. > > > >>Meddling with semantics would be for experts only. >> >> > >You keep referring to experts. What is your criteria for an expert? > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org >>[mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Eeli Kaikkonen >>Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 3:18 AM >>To: sword-devel@crosswire.org >>Subject: RE: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? >> >> >>On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: >> >> >> >>>I'm not sure about slicing so thinly between semantics and syntax. >>> >>> >>Meddling with semantics would be for experts only. With Greek/English >>syntax we have to worry about only handful of these difficulties. With >>semantics we would have ten discussions like this for every verse. This >>project is quite mechanic, but semantics is always interpretation. I >>would be interested in taggin real greek syntax (like whole sentences, >>relations of them etc.) but it would take couple of years of real >>studying first. >> >> >> >>> I agree >>>with the general approach we've taken to the article. Our >>> >>> >>approach assumes >> >> >>>the use of the article with a substantive. This is only a >>> >>> >>fraction of the >> >> >>>article's usage. I do believe the article to have more >>> >>> >>flexibility than our >> >> >>>rule allows. >>> >>> >>We must remember we are talkign about giving a tool for English reader >>to connect Greek/English words. Make it simple. Only rarely we have to >>take up a stand about syntax. >> >> >> >>> We should tag the exceptions. >>> >>> >>But how? In this case (Rev 1:9), would it be best to tag "ho kai" to >>"who also am"? It would be quite neutral about interpretion. At least >>more neutral than tagging the article to the relative pronoun. >> >> >> Sincerely Yours, >> Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland >> >> >> From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 12 05:31:40 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (David's Mailing List and Spam Receiver) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 00:31:40 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Maps, etc In-Reply-To: <200212100912.00489.davidslists@gmx.net> References: <200212100912.00489.davidslists@gmx.net> Message-ID: <200212120031.41632.davidslists@gmx.net> On Tuesday 10 December 2002 09:11 am, David's Mailing List and Spam Receiver wrote: > I was wondering if there was going to be any support for possibly making > modules that contain maps or images or something anytime soon? Here's another thought Charts. We could probably set up a dedicated charts and maps group if we get enough standalone modules. -- Davids Mailing List And Spam Receiver Keeping me (relatively) spam free since 2002 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 12 15:38:14 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Patrick Narkinsky) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:38:14 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] RSV Bug Message-ID: I found what appears to be a bug in the RSV module. John 5.4 is not present in the RSV or the NRSV (and please, let's not get into a theology debate on textual emendations. I have finals this week.) However, the module has John 5.5 in place of 5.4, 5.6 in place of 5.5, etc. This throws off the verse numbering by one in the whole remainder of the chapter. Just thought someone would like to know. Patrick -- Patrick Narkinsky - Apprentice Pastor, Hope Community Church "Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - Chesterton From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 12 16:03:55 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Lamar Owen) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:03:55 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Re: Maps, etc In-Reply-To: <20021211022806.14157.qmail@mail.airnet.com.au> References: <20021211022806.14157.qmail@mail.airnet.com.au> Message-ID: <200212121103.55753.lamar.owen@wgcr.org> On Tuesday 10 December 2002 21:28, bandds@airnet.com.au wrote: > As for the format to use, PNG is free, and is well supported these > days. IMHO, PNG support along with PS or PDF support would be wonderful. PNG is great for pictures and the like, and PS is great for scalable maps and diagrams. It would work to our advantage to support multiple formats, methinks. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 12 16:23:25 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Martin Gruner) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:23:25 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] Re: Maps, etc In-Reply-To: <200212121103.55753.lamar.owen@wgcr.org> References: <20021211022806.14157.qmail@mail.airnet.com.au> <200212121103.55753.lamar.owen@wgcr.org> Message-ID: <200212121723.25999.mg.pub@gmx.net> > IMHO, PNG support along with PS or PDF support would be wonderful. PNG is > great for pictures and the like, and PS is great for scalable maps and > diagrams. It would work to our advantage to support multiple formats, > methinks. As Daniel already pointed out, this aint gonna happen until somebody goes ahead and takes charge of it. Martin From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 12 19:11:04 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Chris Little) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 12:11:04 -0700 (MST) Subject: [sword-devel] Re: Maps, etc In-Reply-To: <200212121723.25999.mg.pub@gmx.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Martin Gruner wrote: > > IMHO, PNG support along with PS or PDF support would be wonderful. PNG is > > great for pictures and the like, and PS is great for scalable maps and > > diagrams. It would work to our advantage to support multiple formats, > > methinks. > > > As Daniel already pointed out, this aint gonna happen until somebody goes > ahead and takes charge of it. To comment on both messages, I don't think anyone should take charge of handling specific graphic format decoders/rasterizers or anything of that sort. I think we need to move towards simply using good HTML renderers as displays. GnomeSword & BibleTime probably already support much of the functionality we should strive for. Regarding formats, we should probably support PNG, JPEG, and SVG. I don't feel PDF is particularly well suited to this task and I don't think we should be incorporating PDF decoders in Sword. Mozilla supports all three natively, so incorporating Mozilla as a control would be a good move, IMO. Shortly, I'm going to begin some more serious work at doing this for BibleCS because I would like to see us be able to use Graphite for rendering (at least of Bibles) in the near term. (Another task for my 3-week vacation from school, I guess.) --Chris From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 12 22:20:18 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Martin Gruner) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 23:20:18 +0100 (MET) Subject: [sword-devel] Re: Maps, etc References: Message-ID: <30606.1039731618@www65.gmx.net> > > As Daniel already pointed out, this aint gonna happen until somebody goes > > ahead and takes charge of it. > > To comment on both messages, I don't think anyone should take charge of > handling specific graphic format decoders/rasterizers or anything of that > sort. I think we need to move towards simply using good HTML renderers as > displays. GnomeSword & BibleTime probably already support much of the > functionality we should strive for. Sorry for not making myself clear enough. I was referring to the whole task of integrating a new kind of module, maps and so forth, into sword. Neither am I an expert in this area, nor would I have the free time to do this; yet unless sombebody is willing to invest himself here, I don't believe that much is gonna happen. This is simple, but true. Martin From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 12 22:26:30 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 00:26:30 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: > I had placed the question of implied verbs to the group. No one responded. > In each of these cases, I am comfortable with my method for handling the > tags. I am looking for consensus in order that we might have consistency. > Consistency is very important if we want our work to be reliable for any use. As far as I know KJV is famous for being consistent considering words and syntax. Readers have to know that we have consistent tagging everywhere. > Myself and many others interested in the project use it for research. I > want it tagged correctly. Of course. That's why I was asking in the first place :) I just meant that usually the Greek/KJV relation is quite clear, but interpretations about meaning and shades of syntax may vary a lot. Maybe I am talking too much... > The approach taken by the KJV interpreters is > clear. They treated the article as a pronoun. Still I'm not convinced. But don't take mee too seriously, I'm stubborn. I left a note with this verse and you can contribute by telling your opinion. > > Meddling with semantics would be for experts only. > > You keep referring to experts. What is your criteria for an expert? > I can read Greek Testament, Moulton's grammar, BAGD lexicon etc. as you have seen. I have also soon done my first Greek course in university. Still I don't consider myself as an expert. Expert has read many books and articles about grammar and have understood most of what they have said. He also has access to specialized books and articles to solve questions like this. He can speak fluently about grammar and other things with scholarly terms. You have seen what kind of discussion arises when we talk about different interpretations of syntax. If we tried to explain Greek syntax (e.g. subject, object, predicative, relative clause, main clause) I wouldn't be able to do that. There would be too much advanced questions and discussion. The skills I mentioned would be needed for that kind of things. But I really don't know how "expert" you all are or how many "experts" there are amongst you. Maybe doing basic Greek grammar tagging is possible. Subordination of words and clauses might not be too complicated and time-consuming. Please notice that I'm not talking about this project here. We will have good usable module here if we have consistent tagging and justifications for our decisions. Tagging the grammar or something like that would take much more effort. Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 12 23:04:47 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 01:04:47 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: <3DF81C15.3090907@crosswire.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Troy A. Griffitts wrote: > ???? ????? ????? ?? ?????????... > ALLA TOUTO ESTIN TO EIRHMENON... > >But< ALLA > >this< TOUTO > >is< ESTIN > >that< TO > >which_was_spoken< EIRHMENON > > Let me know if you'd tag it differently. > "eirhmenon" = "that which was spoken". The article tells that the thing is something specific or known. "eirhmenon" without the article tells us all that "to eirhmenon" says except that it's something known, and we have tagged the english definite article with the base word anyways. In bad English we could translate "this is _the spoken_". But because it's bad English, it's "_that which was spoken_". Some native English speaker can tell me if it would be right to say "this is which was spoken" and if "that which" means different interpretation of the article. Does this make sense and do I have enough knowledge to talk about these things? > >hO tags "who" and "am". I have been tagging implied verbs with their > >subjects. KAI tags "also". > > > >I had placed the question of implied verbs to the group. No one responded. Can you make the question again with some examples (I probably missed it)?. Now it is good time to make the consensus. I also want to make it right, not just how I think it is right. (Right is how WE think it is right, right?) Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 01:02:33 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Adams) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:02:33 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Psuedopigrapha Message-ID: <001001c2a243$54c0df70$3c00000a@daninfochi> Hello All, I have an idea that I am interested in pursuing. I would like to be able to put copies of the Apocrypha and Psuedopigrapha into Sword possibly as General Book modules. A reason for my desire to accomplish this is that they could be referenceable via Diatheke (The Website interface). I am not sure how this could be done, and I don't have much knowledge with the libraries to figure out how to read from the modules. The reason for the e-mail is the question, how should I go about copying the texts from where I see them at ccel.org (which might have something available) and wesley.nnu.edu (which I doubt has a format that is good to use already. The texts are basically in a Book/Chapter/Verse format so I would like to get some insight on how to put into a format for modules. Can someone help me with this please? I would like to accomplish this because of the database I have as a concordance like thing that references them. I would like to help with this project. My thought is that it could be done as one module for all the Psuedopigrapha and Apocrypha parts separately, or would it be better to have a module for each Book? By the Grace of God. Dan Adams - infoChi@infomagic.net http://dana.ucc.nau.edu/~dpa3 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 15:18:57 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Chris Little) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 08:18:57 -0700 (MST) Subject: [sword-devel] Psuedopigrapha In-Reply-To: <001001c2a243$54c0df70$3c00000a@daninfochi> Message-ID: I'll post my 1 Enoch source text so you can have something to examine and model off of. Diatheke isn't curently set to handle GenBooks, but it's a future goal and shouldn't be difficult to implement (in theory). Doing a good interface might be a bigger problem. Having considered this problem myself, I can tell you that, for the most part, CCEL just has books copied from the Non-Canonical Homepage (wesley.nnu.edu) (except resources that are different). And the Non-Canonical Homepage has data in a pretty poor state. Most of the texts are scans from R.H. Charles' work, without any cleanup. The problem with this is that verse numbers in APOT are in the margin, but actual verse breaks happen mid-column, so lots of verse numbers need to be moved before anything else can be done. This might be a good distributed editing project, though I don't know whether it falls better in CrossWire's or CCEL's domain. Essentially, you'll need to do something like $$$1Enoch/1/1 Enoch woke up one morning and decided to write a book.... $$$1Enoch/1/2 In his book... etc. We need to decide on regularized book names (for which we should probably use SBL abbreviations, so I'll post a list that I compiled a while ago) and we need to decide whether to do collections of books or individual books as modules (I would opt for the former, collecting books from APOT into a single module, for example). But if we do an Apocrypha module, we should do that separately. We also would need to decide which translation to use for this, unless someone decides to implement Apocrypha support in Sword very soon, in which case we can just add them to individual modules that require them. --Chris From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 16:01:03 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Dave Hall) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 10:01:03 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] imp2vs linking problems Message-ID: <0530398ED6DBD211AC9200902745F005066E7955@goldberg.internal.clearcommerce.com> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2A2C0.D68BEC70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" imp2vs has verse linking problems. 1) It does not understand single-chapter-book refs like "Jude 20-25": >From file: Jude 20-25 adding entry: Revelation of John 19:1 linking entry: Revelation of John 19:2 to Revelation of John 19:1 linking entry: Revelation of John 19:3 to Revelation of John 19:1 linking entry: Revelation of John 19:4 to Revelation of John 19:1 [...] T hen when it gets to the end of Revelation it goes into an infinite loop: linking entry: Revelation of John 22:21 to Revelation of John 19:1 linking entry: Revelation of John 22:21 to Revelation of John 19:1 linking entry: Revelation of John 22:21 to Revelation of John 19:1 linking entry: Revelation of John 22:21 to Revelation of John 19:1 linking entry: Revelation of John 22:21 to Revelation of John 19:1 linking entry: Revelation of John 22:21 to Revelation of John 19:1 [...] 2) For whatever reason when it links to the last chapter of a book it then continues to link the text to the next book refs for Next-Book 0:0 and Next-Book 1:0 which I, as well as others (MHC), use for additional info: from file: Jude 1:20-25 adding entry: Jude 1:20 linking entry: Jude 1:21 to Jude 1:20 linking entry: Jude 1:22 to Jude 1:20 linking entry: Jude 1:23 to Jude 1:20 linking entry: Jude 1:24 to Jude 1:20 linking entry: Jude 1:25 to Jude 1:20 linking entry: Revelation of John 0:0 to Jude 1:20 linking entry: Revelation of John 1:0 to Jude 1:20 But parsekey seems to handle it OK: parsekey "Jude 1:20-25" Jude 1:20 - Jude 1:25 Another example: from file: MARK 16:19-20; LUKE 24:50-53 adding entry: Mark 16:19 linking entry: Mark 16:20 to Mark 16:19 linking entry: Luke 0:0 to Mark 16:19 linking entry: Luke 1:0 to Mark 16:19 linking entry: Luke 24:50 to Mark 16:19 linking entry: Luke 24:51 to Mark 16:19 linking entry: Luke 24:52 to Mark 16:19 linking entry: Luke 24:53 to Mark 16:19 linking entry: John 0:0 to Mark 16:19 linking entry: John 1:0 to Mark 16:19 parsekey "MARK 16:19-20" Mark 16:19 - Mark 16:20 This next one is particularly bad because I had previously linked text to 1John 1:0: from file: 1John 1:0 adding entry: I John 1:0 But it gets overridden here as the last link done (and in when viewed in Sword) so that the Intro material that was in 1 Jn 0:0 and 1:0 is lost/unviewable - you see the commentary text for 2 Peter 3:14-18: from file: 2Peter 3:14-18 adding entry: II Peter 3:14 linking entry: II Peter 3:15 to II Peter 3:14 linking entry: II Peter 3:16 to II Peter 3:14 linking entry: II Peter 3:17 to II Peter 3:14 linking entry: II Peter 3:18 to II Peter 3:14 linking entry: I John 0:0 to II Peter 3:14 linking entry: I John 1:0 to II Peter 3:14 - Dave Hall dhall@clearcommerce.com (512)626-5452 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2A2C0.D68BEC70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" imp2vs has verse linking problems.

1) It does not understand single-chapter-book refs like "Jude 20-25":

From file: Jude 20-25
adding entry: Revelation of John 19:1
linking entry: Revelation of John 19:2 to Revelation of John 19:1
linking entry: Revelation of John 19:3 to Revelation of John 19:1
linking entry: Revelation of John 19:4 to Revelation of John 19:1
[...]

T hen when it gets to the end of Revelation it goes into an infinite loop:

linking entry: Revelation of John 22:21 to Revelation of John 19:1
linking entry: Revelation of John 22:21 to Revelation of John 19:1
linking entry: Revelation of John 22:21 to Revelation of John 19:1
linking entry: Revelation of John 22:21 to Revelation of John 19:1
linking entry: Revelation of John 22:21 to Revelation of John 19:1
linking entry: Revelation of John 22:21 to Revelation of John 19:1

[...]

2) For whatever reason when it links to the last chapter of a book it then continues to link the text to the next book refs for Next-Book 0:0 and Next-Book 1:0 which I, as well as others (MHC), use for additional info:

from file: Jude 1:20-25
adding entry: Jude 1:20
linking entry: Jude 1:21 to Jude 1:20
linking entry: Jude 1:22 to Jude 1:20
linking entry: Jude 1:23 to Jude 1:20
linking entry: Jude 1:24 to Jude 1:20
linking entry: Jude 1:25 to Jude 1:20
linking entry: Revelation of John 0:0 to Jude 1:20
linking entry: Revelation of John 1:0 to Jude 1:20

But parsekey seems to handle it OK:

parsekey "Jude 1:20-25"
Jude 1:20 - Jude 1:25

Another example:

from file: MARK 16:19-20; LUKE 24:50-53
adding entry: Mark 16:19
linking entry: Mark 16:20 to Mark 16:19
linking entry: Luke 0:0 to Mark 16:19
linking entry: Luke 1:0 to Mark 16:19
linking entry: Luke 24:50 to Mark 16:19
linking entry: Luke 24:51 to Mark 16:19
linking entry: Luke 24:52 to Mark 16:19
linking entry: Luke 24:53 to Mark 16:19
linking entry: John 0:0 to Mark 16:19
linking entry: John 1:0 to Mark 16:19

parsekey "MARK 16:19-20"
Mark 16:19 - Mark 16:20

This next one is particularly bad because I had previously linked text to 1John 1:0:
from file: 1John 1:0
adding entry: I John 1:0

But it gets overridden here as the last link done (and in when viewed in Sword) so that the Intro material that was in 1 Jn 0:0 and 1:0 is lost/unviewable - you see the commentary text for  2 Peter 3:14-18:

from file: 2Peter 3:14-18
adding entry: II Peter 3:14
linking entry: II Peter 3:15 to II Peter 3:14
linking entry: II Peter 3:16 to II Peter 3:14
linking entry: II Peter 3:17 to II Peter 3:14
linking entry: II Peter 3:18 to II Peter 3:14
linking entry: I John 0:0 to II Peter 3:14
linking entry: I John 1:0 to II Peter 3:14

- Dave Hall
    dhall@clearcommerce.com
    (512)626-5452

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2A2C0.D68BEC70-- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 18:28:43 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Chris Little) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 11:28:43 -0700 (MST) Subject: [sword-devel] imp2vs linking problems In-Reply-To: <0530398ED6DBD211AC9200902745F005066E7955@goldberg.internal.clearcommerce.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Dave Hall wrote: > imp2vs has verse linking problems. > > 1) It does not understand single-chapter-book refs like "Jude 20-25": Correct. This is a Sword thing, that looks like Jude chapters 20-25 (in their entirety) which apparently get's interepreted as Rev 19-26 due to normalization of the reference. You should use Jude 1:20-25. > 2) For whatever reason when it links to the last chapter of a book it then > continues to link the text to the next book refs for Next-Book 0:0 and > Next-Book 1:0 which I, as well as others (MHC), use for additional info: I thought this was fixed but I will look into it. It may have been unfixed or you might have your hands on an old binary (possibly because binaries haven't been updated recently). It's not as simple as parsekey because it must visit each verse referenced to create the link. --Chris From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 18:11:33 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Adams) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 11:11:33 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Psuedopigrapha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001001c2a2d3$14895960$3c00000a@daninfochi> Chris, When you are saying that Diatheke isn't currently set to handle GenBooks, and you referring to the Diatheke.cgi type thing? If that is what you are thinking of, I am desiring to implement something to do that using VBscript and ASP pages or PHP, to interface to it and display the verses. Whatever version I develop would probably be multifunction in level so that the display part can be separated from the formatter I desire for my uses, I imagine the base displayer could be as the current CGI display is. Is there a preference as far as what is better ASP/VBscript or PHP? Also can anyone give me an idea how the PHP bindings from sword work? Or is there a way to interface to Diatheke from PHP or ASP/VBscript? This is something that I am more interested in, even though it is not a new platform for sword, along with testing with the English Modules. I did find one bug in the last few days, and I will post it to the list later on today probably. By the Grace of God, Dan Adams - infoChi@infomagic.net http://dana.ucc.nau.edu/~dpa3 -----Original Message----- From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org] On Behalf Of Chris Little Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 8:19 AM To: sword-devel@crosswire.org Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Psuedopigrapha I'll post my 1 Enoch source text so you can have something to examine and model off of. Diatheke isn't curently set to handle GenBooks, but it's a future goal and shouldn't be difficult to implement (in theory). Doing a good interface might be a bigger problem. Having considered this problem myself, I can tell you that, for the most part, CCEL just has books copied from the Non-Canonical Homepage (wesley.nnu.edu) (except resources that are different). And the Non-Canonical Homepage has data in a pretty poor state. Most of the texts are scans from R.H. Charles' work, without any cleanup. The problem with this is that verse numbers in APOT are in the margin, but actual verse breaks happen mid-column, so lots of verse numbers need to be moved before anything else can be done. This might be a good distributed editing project, though I don't know whether it falls better in CrossWire's or CCEL's domain. Essentially, you'll need to do something like $$$1Enoch/1/1 Enoch woke up one morning and decided to write a book.... $$$1Enoch/1/2 In his book... etc. We need to decide on regularized book names (for which we should probably use SBL abbreviations, so I'll post a list that I compiled a while ago) and we need to decide whether to do collections of books or individual books as modules (I would opt for the former, collecting books from APOT into a single module, for example). But if we do an Apocrypha module, we should do that separately. We also would need to decide which translation to use for this, unless someone decides to implement Apocrypha support in Sword very soon, in which case we can just add them to individual modules that require them. --Chris From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 18:21:45 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Dave Hall) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 12:21:45 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] imp2vs linking problems Message-ID: <0530398ED6DBD211AC9200902745F005066E795A@goldberg.internal.clearcommerce.com> Yea, I converted the refs to Jude 1: I loaded and compiled the 1.5.5 release on linux. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Little [mailto:chrislit@crosswire.org] Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 12:29 PM To: Sword Dev (E-mail) Subject: Re: [sword-devel] imp2vs linking problems On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Dave Hall wrote: > imp2vs has verse linking problems. > > 1) It does not understand single-chapter-book refs like "Jude 20-25": Correct. This is a Sword thing, that looks like Jude chapters 20-25 (in their entirety) which apparently get's interepreted as Rev 19-26 due to normalization of the reference. You should use Jude 1:20-25. > 2) For whatever reason when it links to the last chapter of a book it then > continues to link the text to the next book refs for Next-Book 0:0 and > Next-Book 1:0 which I, as well as others (MHC), use for additional info: I thought this was fixed but I will look into it. It may have been unfixed or you might have your hands on an old binary (possibly because binaries haven't been updated recently). It's not as simple as parsekey because it must visit each verse referenced to create the link. --Chris From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 18:26:55 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Adams) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 11:26:55 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] imp2vs linking problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001101c2a2d5$3a479a20$3c00000a@daninfochi> Now that I follow what this post is about, this is the Bug that I mentioned in an e-mail. I have also noticed this occurs for other books if you specify a chapter above the true chapter limit. I would say that it might make sense for the library to interpret the idea of Jude 5-7 as Jude 1:5-7 but to only do this when a book only contains one chapter. I have seen references such as Genesis 5-7 or so, which would be incorrect to interpret as Genesis 1:5-7 because it is intended Genesis 5 - Genesis 7. By the Grace of God, -----Original Message----- From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org] On Behalf Of Chris Little Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 11:29 AM To: Sword Dev (E-mail) Subject: Re: [sword-devel] imp2vs linking problems On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Dave Hall wrote: > imp2vs has verse linking problems. > > 1) It does not understand single-chapter-book refs like "Jude 20-25": Correct. This is a Sword thing, that looks like Jude chapters 20-25 (in their entirety) which apparently get's interepreted as Rev 19-26 due to normalization of the reference. You should use Jude 1:20-25. > 2) For whatever reason when it links to the last chapter of a book it > then continues to link the text to the next book refs for Next-Book > 0:0 and Next-Book 1:0 which I, as well as others (MHC), use for > additional info: I thought this was fixed but I will look into it. It may have been unfixed or you might have your hands on an old binary (possibly because binaries haven't been updated recently). It's not as simple as parsekey because it must visit each verse referenced to create the link. --Chris From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 20:24:17 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Brian Yoon) Date: 13 Dec 2002 14:24:17 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end Message-ID: <1039811073.12568.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> With regards to Sword for Windows, BibleTime, & GnomeSword: Just some questions and thoughts... 1) Has anyone considered using a cross-platform toolkit like wxWindows for this project so that we all can work on the same code, be able to compile on different platforms, and still maintain the look and feel of each respective OS? wxWindows is great and this would allow all of us to contribute to the same project. This would eliminate the need to re-invent the wheel for each OS. Therefore, instead of working on just an OS X port, we could port the existing front-end to wxWindows and then use it on all platforms. 2) Are the goals for each of these different (ie. is one focused on just providing a Bible study tool and another focused on providing a full-featured Bible study and analysis tool like BibleWorks)? 3) If someone wants to see an open source versin of a full-featured Bible study and analysis tool like the commercial software, BibleWorks, developed, what are the major components that are needed to be developed (ie. databases on morphologies, parsing, etc.)? -Brian Yoon From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 21:03:38 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Keith Ralston) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:03:38 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: <3DF81C15.3090907@crosswire.org> Message-ID: This is exactly what I'm doing. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Troy A. Griffitts > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 11:18 PM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: Re: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? > > > The tagging rules for the article as stated in the guidelines states > that in most simple cases in the Greek, where there is an article noun > pair, we do not use the article tag for anything. There ARE instances in > which the greek article tag IS used, and I think you both are speaking > of such cases. > > I've used it a few time as well. Here is an example: > ???? ????? ????? ?? ?????????... > ALLA TOUTO ESTIN TO EIRHMENON... > >But< ALLA > >this< TOUTO > >is< ESTIN > >that< TO > >which_was_spoken< EIRHMENON > > Let me know if you'd tag it differently. > > -Troy. > > > > > > Keith Ralston wrote: > > >>But how? > >> > >> > >hO tags "who" and "am". I have been tagging implied verbs with their > >subjects. KAI tags "also". > > > >I had placed the question of implied verbs to the group. No one > responded. > >In each of these cases, I am comfortable with my method for handling the > >tags. I am looking for consensus in order that we might have > consistency. > > > > > > > >>We must remember we are talkign about giving a tool for English reader > >>to connect Greek/English words. Make it simple. Only rarely we have to > >>take up a stand about syntax. > >> > >> > > > >Myself and many others interested in the project use it for research. I > >want it tagged correctly. The approach taken by the KJV interpreters is > >clear. They treated the article as a pronoun. However, it the > consensus is > >to tag no articles, I will comply. > > > > > > > >>Meddling with semantics would be for experts only. > >> > >> > > > >You keep referring to experts. What is your criteria for an expert? > > > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > >>[mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Eeli Kaikkonen > >>Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 3:18 AM > >>To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > >>Subject: RE: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? > >> > >> > >>On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>I'm not sure about slicing so thinly between semantics and syntax. > >>> > >>> > >>Meddling with semantics would be for experts only. With Greek/English > >>syntax we have to worry about only handful of these difficulties. With > >>semantics we would have ten discussions like this for every verse. This > >>project is quite mechanic, but semantics is always interpretation. I > >>would be interested in taggin real greek syntax (like whole sentences, > >>relations of them etc.) but it would take couple of years of real > >>studying first. > >> > >> > >> > >>> I agree > >>>with the general approach we've taken to the article. Our > >>> > >>> > >>approach assumes > >> > >> > >>>the use of the article with a substantive. This is only a > >>> > >>> > >>fraction of the > >> > >> > >>>article's usage. I do believe the article to have more > >>> > >>> > >>flexibility than our > >> > >> > >>>rule allows. > >>> > >>> > >>We must remember we are talkign about giving a tool for English reader > >>to connect Greek/English words. Make it simple. Only rarely we have to > >>take up a stand about syntax. > >> > >> > >> > >>> We should tag the exceptions. > >>> > >>> > >>But how? In this case (Rev 1:9), would it be best to tag "ho kai" to > >>"who also am"? It would be quite neutral about interpretion. At least > >>more neutral than tagging the article to the relative pronoun. > >> > >> > >> Sincerely Yours, > >> Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland > >> > >> > >> > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 21:10:07 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Keith Ralston) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:10:07 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You should read up on the uses and origins of the article in Greek. Dana and Mantey have a nice brief description. Robertson and Moulton have quite a bit more to say. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Eeli Kaikkonen > Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 5:05 PM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: Re: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? > > > On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Troy A. Griffitts wrote: > > > ???? ????? ????? ?? ?????????... > > ALLA TOUTO ESTIN TO EIRHMENON... > > >But< ALLA > > >this< TOUTO > > >is< ESTIN > > >that< TO > > >which_was_spoken< EIRHMENON > > > > Let me know if you'd tag it differently. > > > > "eirhmenon" = "that which was spoken". The article tells that the thing > is something specific or known. "eirhmenon" without the article tells > us all that "to eirhmenon" says except that it's something known, and we > have tagged the english definite article with the base word anyways. > > In bad English we could translate "this is _the spoken_". But because > it's bad English, it's "_that which was spoken_". Some native English > speaker can tell me if it would be right to say "this is which was > spoken" and if "that which" means different interpretation of the > article. > > Does this make sense and do I have enough knowledge to talk about > these things? > > > >hO tags "who" and "am". I have been tagging implied verbs with their > > >subjects. KAI tags "also". > > > > > >I had placed the question of implied verbs to the group. No > one responded. > > Can you make the question again with some examples (I probably missed > it)?. Now it is good time to make the consensus. I also want to make it > right, not just how I think it is right. (Right is how WE think it is > right, right?) > > Sincerely Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 21:10:07 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Keith Ralston) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:10:07 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Would six years of undergrad and graduate Greek work come close enough that I have your permission to comment? Not to mention two years of exegesis. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Eeli Kaikkonen > Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 4:27 PM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: RE: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? > > > On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: > > > I had placed the question of implied verbs to the group. No > one responded. > > In each of these cases, I am comfortable with my method for handling the > > tags. I am looking for consensus in order that we might have > consistency. > > > > Consistency is very important if we want our work to be reliable for any > use. As far as I know KJV is famous for being consistent considering > words and syntax. Readers have to know that we have consistent tagging > everywhere. > > > Myself and many others interested in the project use it for research. I > > want it tagged correctly. > > Of course. That's why I was asking in the first place :) I just meant > that usually the Greek/KJV relation is quite clear, but interpretations > about meaning and shades of syntax may vary a lot. Maybe I am talking > too much... > > > The approach taken by the KJV interpreters is > > clear. They treated the article as a pronoun. > > Still I'm not convinced. But don't take mee too seriously, I'm stubborn. > I left a note with this verse and you can contribute by telling your > opinion. > > > > Meddling with semantics would be for experts only. > > > > You keep referring to experts. What is your criteria for an expert? > > > > I can read Greek Testament, Moulton's grammar, BAGD lexicon etc. as you > have seen. I have also soon done my first Greek course in university. > Still I don't consider myself as an expert. Expert has read many books > and articles about grammar and have understood most of what they have > said. He also has access to specialized books and articles to solve > questions like this. He can speak fluently about grammar and other > things with scholarly terms. > > You have seen what kind of discussion arises when we talk about > different interpretations of syntax. If we tried to explain Greek > syntax (e.g. subject, object, predicative, relative clause, main clause) > I wouldn't be able to do that. There would be too much advanced > questions and discussion. The skills I mentioned would be needed for > that kind of things. > > But I really don't know how "expert" you all are or how many "experts" > there are amongst you. Maybe doing basic Greek grammar tagging is > possible. Subordination of words and clauses might not be too > complicated and time-consuming. > > Please notice that I'm not talking about this project here. We will have > good usable module here if we have consistent tagging and justifications > for our decisions. Tagging the grammar or something like that would take > much more effort. > > > > Sincerely Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 21:14:12 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Dave Hall) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:14:12 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] imp2vs linking problems Message-ID: <0530398ED6DBD211AC9200902745F005066E7960@goldberg.internal.clearcommerce.com> FYI, I just pulled the win32 tools from the ftp site (ftp://ftp.crosswire.org/pub/sword/utils/win32) and they fail same as the linux versions in regard to the additional linking of the last text of a book to "verses" 0:0 and 1:0 of the next book. - Dave -----Original Message----- From: Dave Hall [mailto:dhall@clearcommerce.com] Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 12:22 PM To: 'sword-devel@crosswire.org' Subject: RE: [sword-devel] imp2vs linking problems Yea, I converted the refs to Jude 1: I loaded and compiled the 1.5.5 release on linux. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Little [mailto:chrislit@crosswire.org] Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 12:29 PM To: Sword Dev (E-mail) Subject: Re: [sword-devel] imp2vs linking problems On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Dave Hall wrote: > imp2vs has verse linking problems. > > 1) It does not understand single-chapter-book refs like "Jude 20-25": Correct. This is a Sword thing, that looks like Jude chapters 20-25 (in their entirety) which apparently get's interepreted as Rev 19-26 due to normalization of the reference. You should use Jude 1:20-25. > 2) For whatever reason when it links to the last chapter of a book it then > continues to link the text to the next book refs for Next-Book 0:0 and > Next-Book 1:0 which I, as well as others (MHC), use for additional info: I thought this was fixed but I will look into it. It may have been unfixed or you might have your hands on an old binary (possibly because binaries haven't been updated recently). It's not as simple as parsekey because it must visit each verse referenced to create the link. --Chris From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 21:19:10 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Don A. Elbourne Jr.) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:19:10 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] Re: Maps, etc References: Message-ID: <00d301c2a2ed$47529ae0$a5620e44@dkv6pe0iben68t> > I think we need to move towards simply using good HTML renderers as > displays. GnomeSword & BibleTime probably already support much of the > functionality we should strive for. > > Regarding formats, we should probably support PNG, JPEG, and SVG. I don't > feel PDF is particularly well suited to this task and I don't think we > should be incorporating PDF decoders in Sword. Mozilla supports all three > natively, so incorporating Mozilla as a control would be a good move, IMO. I agree with Chris on this. I would love to see Sword be able to send valid XHTML to the front-ends. That's really the way to go. I'm coming at this from the content creation side of things, the ability to have a rich environment like Mozilla to create for would be very nice. I say "XHTML" because I think we should emphasize separating structure from style to keep the content as portable as possible. by grace alone, Don A. Elbourne Jr. http://elbourne.org From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 21:22:34 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Brian Pribis) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 14:22:34 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end References: <1039811073.12568.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3DFA4F9A.5070701@vnet-inc.com> Hey quit reading my mind! I was thinking the very same thing. Has anyone got the stuff to compile on windows outside of Borland? I tried vcpp 6 and 7 but it loses its cookies real quick like (I just tried it a couple of times and may not have things set up quite right yet)? I think wxWindows would be a good bet and would be willing to work with you (or anyone) doing a pilot to see how it goes. Maybe just getting up a reader for the bible modules with search features and then cross compiling for a few systems to see how it goes. Brian Brian Yoon wrote: >With regards to Sword for Windows, BibleTime, & GnomeSword: > >Just some questions and thoughts... > >1) Has anyone considered using a cross-platform toolkit like wxWindows >for this project so that we all can work on the same code, be able to >compile on different platforms, and still maintain the look and feel of >each respective OS? wxWindows is great and this would allow all of us >to contribute to the same project. This would eliminate the need to >re-invent the wheel for each OS. Therefore, instead of working on just >an OS X port, we could port the existing front-end to wxWindows and then >use it on all platforms. > >2) Are the goals for each of these different (ie. is one focused on just >providing a Bible study tool and another focused on providing a >full-featured Bible study and analysis tool like BibleWorks)? > >3) If someone wants to see an open source versin of a full-featured >Bible study and analysis tool like the commercial software, BibleWorks, >developed, what are the major components that are needed to be developed >(ie. databases on morphologies, parsing, etc.)? > >-Brian Yoon > > > > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 21:45:32 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (David's Mailing List and Spam Receiver) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 16:45:32 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Re: Maps, etc In-Reply-To: <00d301c2a2ed$47529ae0$a5620e44@dkv6pe0iben68t> References: <00d301c2a2ed$47529ae0$a5620e44@dkv6pe0iben68t> Message-ID: <200212131645.32396.davidslists@gmx.net> On Friday 13 December 2002 04:19 pm, Don A. Elbourne Jr. wrote: > I agree with Chris on this. I would love to see Sword be able to send valid > XHTML to the front-ends. That's really the way to go. I'm coming at this > from the content creation side of things, the ability to have a rich > environment like Mozilla to create for would be very nice. I say "XHTML" > because I think we should emphasize separating structure from style to keep > the content as portable as possible. Why not just straight xml and xslt? -- Davids Mailing List And Spam Receiver Keeping me (relatively) spam free since 2002 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 22:28:10 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Matthew Donadio) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 17:28:10 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end References: <1039811073.12568.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3DFA5EFA.229131FD@ieee.org> Brian Yoon wrote: > 1) Has anyone considered using a cross-platform toolkit like wxWindows > for this project so that we all can work on the same code, be able to > compile on different platforms, and still maintain the look and feel of > each respective OS? wxWindows is great and this would allow all of us > to contribute to the same project. This would eliminate the need to > re-invent the wheel for each OS. Therefore, instead of working on just > an OS X port, we could port the existing front-end to wxWindows and then > use it on all platforms. Do wxWindows applications behave nicely with the environment that they are running under? I think the reason for BibleTime and GnomeSword both existing is that they are specifically deigned for KDE and Gnome, respecitevely. > 3) If someone wants to see an open source versin of a full-featured > Bible study and analysis tool like the commercial software, BibleWorks, > developed, what are the major components that are needed to be developed > (ie. databases on morphologies, parsing, etc.)? IMHO, the thing that is missing is cooperation from the various commercial publishers for making their works available in a standard format. For example, I have Anchor Bible Dictionary and Expositor's Commentary on my short list of books to get. New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology and/or Kittel's books may join the list, too. They are all available electronically, but AFAIK, they are all incompatible with each other. Add to that the fact that most modern texts are locked. I don't know what to do, other than stick to physical books. -- Matthew Donadio (m.p.donadio@ieee.org) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 22:49:01 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:49:01 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end References: <1039811073.12568.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3DFA63DD.9030206@crosswire.org> Hey guys. Yep. Sven, who has recently joined the military, started a wxWindows gui dubbed 'spatha'. You can checkout the code from cvs: http://www.crosswire.org/ucgi-bin/dglassey/viewcvs.cgi/spatha/ I'm not sure how far he got before he left for the military, but it might be a place to start. -Troy. Brian Yoon wrote: > With regards to Sword for Windows, BibleTime, & GnomeSword: > > Just some questions and thoughts... > > 1) Has anyone considered using a cross-platform toolkit like wxWindows > for this project so that we all can work on the same code, be able to > compile on different platforms, and still maintain the look and feel of > each respective OS? wxWindows is great and this would allow all of us > to contribute to the same project. This would eliminate the need to > re-invent the wheel for each OS. Therefore, instead of working on just > an OS X port, we could port the existing front-end to wxWindows and then > use it on all platforms. > > 2) Are the goals for each of these different (ie. is one focused on just > providing a Bible study tool and another focused on providing a > full-featured Bible study and analysis tool like BibleWorks)? > > 3) If someone wants to see an open source versin of a full-featured > Bible study and analysis tool like the commercial software, BibleWorks, > developed, what are the major components that are needed to be developed > (ie. databases on morphologies, parsing, etc.)? > > -Brian Yoon > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 22:57:44 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 00:57:44 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: > Would six years of undergrad and graduate Greek work come close enough that > I have your permission to comment? Not to mention two years of exegesis. > Definitely yes. I never wanted to say that any of you is unreliable or that I know better. It is just that if I don't know the level of someone's knowledge I cannot trust his opinions more than mine. See, anyone can quote some books like I do and give justifications for his views according to the knowledge he has. Some people just have more knowledge than I. Now we know my level and yours. It's a pleasure to see that at least one person here (and probably more) has more expertise than I have. This is not about boasting of one's skills or anything like that. I just think that knowing each others background helps us in giving credit to good thoughts and being sceptical in a healthy way. In scholarly word everyone has a title and a bibliography. That's how we value them. Hopefully not because we look at manly wisdom more than divine wisdom, but because it is a way to see how much one might know. Moreover, I didn't want to sound like I despise someone's comments. My thinking is very analytical and I love to understand a new thing by heart and head more than just take someone's word for it. That's why I insisted justifications. I don't take anyone's authority for granted. I have been trying to digest the new information you and the others have given to me. Hope this cleared the air. Sorry if I have been stretching your nerves. Now when I think about my previous postings I well might have sounded like I keep my opinions better than of others. Sometimes it even may be true - I'm far from perfect. Please forgive me. Gal 5:15 Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 13 23:08:21 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 01:08:21 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end In-Reply-To: <3DFA5EFA.229131FD@ieee.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Matthew Donadio wrote: > > Do wxWindows applications behave nicely with the environment that they > are running under? I think the reason for BibleTime and GnomeSword both > existing is that they are specifically deigned for KDE and Gnome, > respecitevely. > In Linux world it seems to be impossible to get everyone behind one project. Each widged set and desktop environment have it's own pros and cons. In this case different text encodings is important. Does wxwindows handle unicode, bi-di etc.? > IMHO, the thing that is missing is cooperation from the various > commercial publishers for making their works available in a standard > format. For example, I have Anchor Bible Dictionary and Expositor's > Commentary on my short list of books to get. New International > Dictionary of New Testament Theology and/or Kittel's books may join the > list, too. They are all available electronically, but AFAIK, they are > all incompatible with each other. Add to that the fact that most modern > texts are locked. I don't know what to do, other than stick to physical > books. The future of a binary proprietary format is always uncertain. I wouldn't by an expensive book if I wasn't sure I can read it after 10 years. A Bible reading program you have now probably won't work after 5 years on your updated computer and OS. Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 14 05:03:44 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Keith Ralston) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 23:03:44 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I don't take anyone's authority for granted. Neither should any of us. Asking for references is the best idea. We should all be able to back up our claims with research. >I'm far from perfect. Please forgive me. As is everyone else on the project. Let's just make sure we treat one another with grace and respect. Phil. 2:3 Keith From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 14 05:15:55 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Keith Ralston) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 23:15:55 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end In-Reply-To: <1039811073.12568.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Sounds like a great Java project, ;-) > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Brian Yoon > Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 2:24 PM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end > > > With regards to Sword for Windows, BibleTime, & GnomeSword: > > Just some questions and thoughts... > > 1) Has anyone considered using a cross-platform toolkit like wxWindows > for this project so that we all can work on the same code, be able to > compile on different platforms, and still maintain the look and feel of > each respective OS? wxWindows is great and this would allow all of us > to contribute to the same project. This would eliminate the need to > re-invent the wheel for each OS. Therefore, instead of working on just > an OS X port, we could port the existing front-end to wxWindows and then > use it on all platforms. > > 2) Are the goals for each of these different (ie. is one focused on just > providing a Bible study tool and another focused on providing a > full-featured Bible study and analysis tool like BibleWorks)? > > 3) If someone wants to see an open source versin of a full-featured > Bible study and analysis tool like the commercial software, BibleWorks, > developed, what are the major components that are needed to be developed > (ie. databases on morphologies, parsing, etc.)? > > -Brian Yoon > > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 14 09:24:55 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 11:24:55 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: > Sounds like a great Java project, ;-) And we already have a good start in form of well-organized, over-engineered ModEdit ;) :) > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Brian Yoon > > Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 2:24 PM > > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > > Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end > > > > > > With regards to Sword for Windows, BibleTime, & GnomeSword: > > > > Just some questions and thoughts... > > > > 1) Has anyone considered using a cross-platform toolkit like wxWindows > > for this project so that we all can work on the same code, be able to > > compile on different platforms, and still maintain the look and feel of > > each respective OS? wxWindows is great and this would allow all of us > > to contribute to the same project. This would eliminate the need to > > re-invent the wheel for each OS. Therefore, instead of working on just > > an OS X port, we could port the existing front-end to wxWindows and then > > use it on all platforms. > > > > 2) Are the goals for each of these different (ie. is one focused on just > > providing a Bible study tool and another focused on providing a > > full-featured Bible study and analysis tool like BibleWorks)? > > > > 3) If someone wants to see an open source versin of a full-featured > > Bible study and analysis tool like the commercial software, BibleWorks, > > developed, what are the major components that are needed to be developed > > (ie. databases on morphologies, parsing, etc.)? > > > > -Brian Yoon > > > > > > > Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 14 09:54:30 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 11:54:30 +0200 (EET) Subject: [sword-devel] kjv2003: two splits needed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: > You should read up on the uses and origins of the article in Greek. Dana > and Mantey have a nice brief description. Robertson and Moulton have quite > a bit more to say. > I try to read some Moulton one of these days. Until then it would be good to have some more examples about tagging. When to tag like Troy tagged here and when not to tag the article? Is it just about English relative pronoun? And to continue our endless conversation: NKJV translates Acts 2:16 as "this is what was spoken". Here "what was spoken" can clearly be "eirhmenon" and there is no relative pronoun. Just like in Rev 1:9. Is it really possible that the translators of KJV and NKJV had different views about usage of the article? Or did the translators of KJV choose an English idiom which NKJV translators changed to a more neutral? Or do I get English wrong here? > > > > On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Troy A. Griffitts wrote: > > > > > ???? ????? ????? ?? ?????????... > > > ALLA TOUTO ESTIN TO EIRHMENON... > > > >But< ALLA > > > >this< TOUTO > > > >is< ESTIN > > > >that< TO > > > >which_was_spoken< EIRHMENON > > > > > > Let me know if you'd tag it differently. Sincerely Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 14 10:21:43 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 03:21:43 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end References: Message-ID: <3DFB0637.40505@crosswire.org> Actually, we have 2 flavours of Java SWORD these days. We've gained an independent project: Project B, that has decided to join our efforts and has been relabeled: jsword, and we have our our older attempt at a class by class port of the sword libraries that our website uses, now renamed jsword-old. They are both still developed but one day may become one project. -Troy. you can view the jsword page at: http://www.crosswire.org/jsword and view the code from either one in our cvs repository or viewcvs at: http://www.crosswire.org/ucgi-bin/dglassey/viewcvs.cgi ModEdit still uses the C++ engine, though it seems to work quite nice and might be advantagious for certain tasks like searching. -Troy. Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: > > >>Sounds like a great Java project, ;-) > > > And we already have a good start in form of well-organized, > over-engineered ModEdit ;) :) > > > >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org >>>[mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Brian Yoon >>>Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 2:24 PM >>>To: sword-devel@crosswire.org >>>Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end >>> >>> >>>With regards to Sword for Windows, BibleTime, & GnomeSword: >>> >>>Just some questions and thoughts... >>> >>>1) Has anyone considered using a cross-platform toolkit like wxWindows >>>for this project so that we all can work on the same code, be able to >>>compile on different platforms, and still maintain the look and feel of >>>each respective OS? wxWindows is great and this would allow all of us >>>to contribute to the same project. This would eliminate the need to >>>re-invent the wheel for each OS. Therefore, instead of working on just >>>an OS X port, we could port the existing front-end to wxWindows and then >>>use it on all platforms. >>> >>>2) Are the goals for each of these different (ie. is one focused on just >>>providing a Bible study tool and another focused on providing a >>>full-featured Bible study and analysis tool like BibleWorks)? >>> >>>3) If someone wants to see an open source versin of a full-featured >>>Bible study and analysis tool like the commercial software, BibleWorks, >>>developed, what are the major components that are needed to be developed >>>(ie. databases on morphologies, parsing, etc.)? >>> >>>-Brian Yoon >>> >>> >>> >> > > Sincerely Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 14 14:19:45 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Joachim Ansorg) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 15:19:45 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end In-Reply-To: <3DFB0637.40505@crosswire.org> References: <3DFB0637.40505@crosswire.org> Message-ID: <200212141519.45899.joachim@ansorgs.de> We have three types of Java support :) The Swig bindings can be used to create Java-classes to work with Sword usig Java. Joachim > Actually, we have 2 flavours of Java SWORD these days. We've gained an > independent project: Project B, that has decided to join our efforts and > has been relabeled: jsword, and we have our our older attempt at a class > by class port of the sword libraries that our website uses, now renamed > jsword-old. They are both still developed but one day may become one > project. > > -Troy. > > you can view the jsword page at: > > http://www.crosswire.org/jsword > > and view the code from either one in our cvs repository or viewcvs at: > > http://www.crosswire.org/ucgi-bin/dglassey/viewcvs.cgi > > > ModEdit still uses the C++ engine, though it seems to work quite nice > and might be advantagious for certain tasks like searching. > > -Troy. > > Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > > On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Keith Ralston wrote: > >>Sounds like a great Java project, ;-) > > > > And we already have a good start in form of well-organized, > > over-engineered ModEdit ;) :) > > > >>>-----Original Message----- > >>>From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > >>>[mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Brian Yoon > >>>Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 2:24 PM > >>>To: sword-devel@crosswire.org > >>>Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end > >>> > >>> > >>>With regards to Sword for Windows, BibleTime, & GnomeSword: > >>> > >>>Just some questions and thoughts... > >>> > >>>1) Has anyone considered using a cross-platform toolkit like wxWindows > >>>for this project so that we all can work on the same code, be able to > >>>compile on different platforms, and still maintain the look and feel of > >>>each respective OS? wxWindows is great and this would allow all of us > >>>to contribute to the same project. This would eliminate the need to > >>>re-invent the wheel for each OS. Therefore, instead of working on just > >>>an OS X port, we could port the existing front-end to wxWindows and then > >>>use it on all platforms. > >>> > >>>2) Are the goals for each of these different (ie. is one focused on just > >>>providing a Bible study tool and another focused on providing a > >>>full-featured Bible study and analysis tool like BibleWorks)? > >>> > >>>3) If someone wants to see an open source versin of a full-featured > >>>Bible study and analysis tool like the commercial software, BibleWorks, > >>>developed, what are the major components that are needed to be developed > >>>(ie. databases on morphologies, parsing, etc.)? > >>> > >>>-Brian Yoon > > > > Sincerely Yours, > > Eeli Kaikkonen Suomi Finland -- Joachim Ansorg www.bibletime.de www.ansorgs.de From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 14 14:36:24 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Don A. Elbourne Jr.) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 08:36:24 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] Bible Software Google Search Message-ID: <002b01c2a37e$2dcc5d90$a5620e44@dkv6pe0iben68t> I was just curious how Crosswire would fair on a Google search for "Bible Software." Here are the results: 1. Logos 2. Theophilos 3. SwordSearcher 4. e-Sword 5. Online Bible 6. Olive Tree 7. FreeBible.com 8. BibleWorks 9. Crosswire 10. OLB on the CCEL site In the top ten front page of google is not bad. by grace alone, Don A. Elbourne Jr. http://elbourne.org From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 14 15:37:02 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Hugo van der Kooij) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 16:37:02 +0100 (CET) Subject: [sword-devel] Bible Software Google Search In-Reply-To: <002b01c2a37e$2dcc5d90$a5620e44@dkv6pe0iben68t> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Dec 2002, Don A. Elbourne Jr. wrote: > I was just curious how Crosswire would fair on a Google search for "Bible > Software." The pages have the required tags but .... they fail the W3C validator. Take a look at http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.crosswire.org/sword/index.jsp for example. It shows there are some minor issues but also some odd issues that will result in odd results like starting list entries without starting a list. How can we work on increasing the W3C compliance of the website? Hugo -- All email sent to me is bound to the rules described on my homepage. hvdkooij@vanderkooij.org http://hvdkooij.xs4all.nl/ Don't meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are subtle and quick to anger. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 14 16:58:20 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Don A. Elbourne Jr.) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 10:58:20 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] Bible Software Google Search References: Message-ID: <004801c2a392$01d78750$a5620e44@dkv6pe0iben68t> Does non-valid HTML effect the Google ranking or are you raising a different issue? We do need to make it valid HTML. Some of the mistakes might be mine, some were introduced between the time the template left my hands and reached the server. Most seem to be created by the dynamically inserted stuff. I will try to go through and see where all the problems are coming from and see if we can get that all cleaned up. by grace alone, Don A. Elbourne Jr. http://elbourne.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hugo van der Kooij" To: Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Bible Software Google Search > On Sat, 14 Dec 2002, Don A. Elbourne Jr. wrote: > > > I was just curious how Crosswire would fair on a Google search for "Bible > > Software." > > The pages have the required tags but .... they fail the W3C validator. > > Take a look at > http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.crosswire.org/sword/index.jsp > for example. > > It shows there are some minor issues but also some odd issues that will > result in odd results like starting list entries without starting a list. > > How can we work on increasing the W3C compliance of the website? > > Hugo > > -- > All email sent to me is bound to the rules described on my homepage. > hvdkooij@vanderkooij.org http://hvdkooij.xs4all.nl/ > Don't meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, > for they are subtle and quick to anger. > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 14 18:25:28 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Joachim Ansorg) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 19:25:28 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] Mem leak in Sword Message-ID: <200212141924.05070.joachim@ansorgs.de> --------------Boundary-00=_GIG412S7T1IGGVR74LEW Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Troy, I was working on BibleTime's parallel display of more than one lexicon, w= hich=20 displays only the keys which are in all selected modules. Please have a look at the following test program, to go though WebstersDi= ct it=20 uses almost 400MB of Ram. I think it's a mem leak. Am I doing something wrong or is it really a bug in Sword? I'm not sure if it only happens with WebstersDict. Joachim --=20 Joachim Ansorg www.bibletime.de www.ansorgs.de --------------Boundary-00=_GIG412S7T1IGGVR74LEW Content-Type: text/x-c++src; charset="iso-8859-15"; name="test-sword.cpp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="test-sword.cpp" #include #include #include using namespace std; using namespace sword; int main (int argc, char* argv[]) { SWMgr mgr; SWModule* mod = mgr.Modules["WebstersDict"]; (mod) = TOP; //first entry do { cout << mod->KeyText() << endl; (mod)++; } while ( !mod->Error() ); (mod) = TOP; //back to first entry }; --------------Boundary-00=_GIG412S7T1IGGVR74LEW-- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 14 20:54:25 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 13:54:25 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Mem leak in Sword References: <200212141924.05070.joachim@ansorgs.de> Message-ID: <3DFB9A81.2090602@crosswire.org> Joachim, Your test program looks perfectly valid. I'll have a look at the code. I added a new interface: SWCacher, that many classes, especially most of the drivers, implement now. It gives standard functions to clear any cached data they are holding. It was originally added out of the need for SWORD to have a SMALLER memory consumption for handheld devices, but maybe I screwed something up :) The concept isn't all complete yet. Eventually, I'm hoping to have a CacheMgr that we can add any SWCacher implementor objects to, and it will take care of flushing the oldest accessed caches and be tunable. I'll keep ya posted on what I find out. -Troy. Joachim Ansorg wrote: > Troy, > > I was working on BibleTime's parallel display of more than one lexicon, which > displays only the keys which are in all selected modules. > > Please have a look at the following test program, to go though WebstersDict it > uses almost 400MB of Ram. I think it's a mem leak. > > Am I doing something wrong or is it really a bug in Sword? > I'm not sure if it only happens with WebstersDict. > > Joachim > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > #include > #include > > #include > > using namespace std; > using namespace sword; > > int main (int argc, char argv[]) { > SWMgr mgr; > SWModule* mod = mgr.Modules["WebstersDict"]; > > (mod) = TOP; //first entry > > do { > cout << mod->KeyText() << endl; > (mod)++; > } while ( !mod->Error() ); > > (mod) = TOP; //back to first entry > > }; From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 15 00:43:16 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Brook Humphrey) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 16:43:16 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end In-Reply-To: <3DFA5EFA.229131FD@ieee.org> References: <1039811073.12568.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <3DFA5EFA.229131FD@ieee.org> Message-ID: <200212141643.16205.bah@webmedic.net> On Friday 13 December 2002 02:28 pm, Matthew Donadio wrote: > Brian Yoon wrote: > > 1) Has anyone considered using a cross-platform toolkit like wxWindows > > for this project so that we all can work on the same code, be able to > > compile on different platforms, and still maintain the look and feel of > > each respective OS? wxWindows is great and this would allow all of us > > to contribute to the same project. This would eliminate the need to > > re-invent the wheel for each OS. Therefore, instead of working on just > > an OS X port, we could port the existing front-end to wxWindows and then > > use it on all platforms. > > Do wxWindows applications behave nicely with the environment that they > are running under? I think the reason for BibleTime and GnomeSword both > existing is that they are specifically deigned for KDE and Gnome, > respecitevely. > A good example of the is audacity. It's a project on sourceforge and uses wxwindows. It runs on linux windows and macos. and it looks the same on all of them. I might add it works well as Iuse it for allot of my audio needs. -- -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- Brook Humphrey Mobile PC Medic, 420 1st, Cheney, WA 99004, 509-235-9107 http://www.webmedic.net, bah@webmedic.net, bah@linux-mandrake.com Holiness unto the Lord -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 15 01:58:52 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (David's Mailing List and Spam Receiver) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 20:58:52 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end In-Reply-To: <200212141643.16205.bah@webmedic.net> References: <1039811073.12568.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <3DFA5EFA.229131FD@ieee.org> <200212141643.16205.bah@webmedic.net> Message-ID: <200212142058.53302.davidslists@gmx.net> On Saturday 14 December 2002 07:43 pm, Brook Humphrey wrote: > A good example of the is audacity. It's a project on sourceforge and uses > wxwindows. It runs on linux windows and macos. and it looks the same on all > of them. I might add it works well as Iuse it for allot of my audio needs. If this is what I'm thinking of it's also a drop-in audio library. It had problems in win98se playing audio though. I don't know if those have been fixed. Oh, and I know the guy that writes it (well online anyway) -- Davids Mailing List And Spam Receiver Keeping me (relatively) spam free since 2002 From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 11 22:36:06 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 03:36:06 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Gtk-1.2: Greek text on buttons Message-ID: In Gtk-1.2 I want Greek text on a button. Can I use an iso10646-1 font (How? Setting a UTF-8 string produces a mess.) or need to use a Greek font? Example? -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 15 11:15:14 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 04:15:14 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Gtk-1.2: Greek text on buttons References: Message-ID: <3DFC6442.4060806@crosswire.org> Victor, Here's a log from #gnome In gtk+ 1.2.x, when setting text to a label, the text is defined in the doc as a gchar which, according to the doc is typedef'd to a char * so... is there a way to set multibyte text on a label in 1.2? or do I have to use a strange 255 character encoding? like if I want greek text on a button? You have to use the user's locale encoding. but if I'm writing a translation package from greek to english... then how do I get greek and english on the same form? Well English is ASCII. And most locale encodings are ASCII compatible. ok, so they'd be in like the upper bytes? Yes. ok, thanks. but really, how would I do something like hebrew and greek? scribe: May I ask why you don't use GTK+ 2.0? there has to be a way to specify stuff like that. right in 2.0 I can use unicode right? yes UTF-8 scribe: Go for 2.0. It'll avoid much hassle. thank you very much danielk. So, in short. 1.2 uses older single byte encodings defined by the user's locale, and 2.0 uses utf8, right? Yes. so in 1.2 there is no way to display a range of different encodings in the same app? Well you can use Unicode in 1.2 AFAIK, but it's a mess. Very few apps get it right. ah. The only one I know of is Evolution. ok, thanks for the info. You've been great! np porton@narod.ru wrote: > In Gtk-1.2 I want Greek text on a button. > > Can I use an iso10646-1 font (How? Setting a UTF-8 string produces a mess.) or > need to use a Greek font? > > Example? From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 15 17:03:12 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Martin Gruner) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 18:03:12 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] wiki reanimated !! Message-ID: <200212151803.12483.mg.pub@gmx.net> Hey all, I am so happy to tell you that with the help of a 2-weeks old backup available from sf I was able to restore the wiki, which was hacked and deleted a few days ago. (http://sword.sf.net/wiki). Nevertheless, I suggest that it be moved to crosswire asap to avoid things like this in future. Martin From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 18 02:41:46 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 07:41:46 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Bible Variants released Message-ID: I released Bible Variants 0.1 (alpha but already usable): program allowing to view and select different Original Bible (for now only New Testament) translation variants. It is GTK+ 2 (for now tested only with Linux, but may work with other systems). See http://clean-bible.sf.net/ . I also updated the site http://clean-bible.sf.net/ . Now it contains a FAQ. There was too many GREAT misunderstandings of my concept of clean Bible without vowels/accents. So the FAQ is a must read. Subscribe to clean-bible-theology@lists.sf.net for discussion about this and announcements of the related software. Now all discussions on our topic in this list. I suggest to not post several days as you need to wait when others will subscribe. Special note for Martin Gruner: You promised to use my software to check. Now you can download and experiment with it (however I haven't yet provided any examples...). List-Subscribe: , Anyone of holy warriors wanting to join development? -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 17 19:10:09 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Jonathan Hughes) Date: 17 Dec 2002 19:10:09 +0000 Subject: [sword-devel] Software Solution for Taking Payments and Sending Out an Unlock Key! Message-ID: <1040152210.32038.168.camel@jhughes> --=-lZ9Emhl9cnFFbTqSpWXx Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Guys, I got an e-mail today from a publisher that was interested in distributing their work for use with The SWORD Project. When I send them our permission request letter I give the following four options: 1) We offer your translations for free download with no restrictions.=20 As we exist as a ministry, this is the most desired option. 2) We offer your translations free for personal use, or with other restrictions in the copyright notice. 3) We offer your translations encrypted and CrossWire or you can give out the unlock code. 4) We give you the modules that work with our software and you can offer it from your site under whatever terms you desire. Here is where I need some pointers from you guys. CrossWire does not want to be involved in the financial matters of exchanging money for modules so we only offer to have the publisher setup a way to take the money and send out an unlock code (most likely via e-mail) and we host the module. However the publisher that I got an e-mail from today would like to know how to setup the mechanism to send out unlock keys upon receiving the fee. I would like to be able to at least give them some ideas of where to start, what software solutions might be of use to them. Whether these solutions are just software that they can buy and use or is a service that they can pay for. So what are people's ideas? A solution for these publishers, remember many of the publishers that do not know how to setup something like this are small publishers so they don't have a big budget. Thanks for any tips people have. In Christ, Jonathan Copyright Coordinator --=-lZ9Emhl9cnFFbTqSpWXx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQA9/3aQDuJ/4YoVjMIRAmvDAJ9VIilIXc3B1UX5V8JebxubB32WKwCdGFZe zW3FUo6PdGKQvkJPSztjLNQ= =pN4X -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-lZ9Emhl9cnFFbTqSpWXx-- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 18 04:15:48 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Rev. Michael Paul Johnson) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 14:15:48 +1000 Subject: [sword-devel] Software Solution for Taking Payments and Sending O ut an Unlock Key! In-Reply-To: <1040152210.32038.168.camel@jhughes> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021218141248.020046f0@mail.sil.org.pg> --=====================_14470447==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:10 18-12-02 +1000, you wrote: >Hey Guys, > > I got an e-mail today from a publisher that was interested in >distributing their work for use with The SWORD Project. When I send them >our permission request letter I give the following four options: > >1) We offer your translations for free download with no restrictions. >As we exist as a ministry, this is the most desired option. >2) We offer your translations free for personal use, or with other >restrictions in the copyright notice. >3) We offer your translations encrypted and CrossWire or you can give >out the unlock code. >4) We give you the modules that work with our software and you can offer >it from your site under whatever terms you desire. > > Here is where I need some pointers from you guys. CrossWire does >not >want to be involved in the financial matters of exchanging money for >modules so we only offer to have the publisher setup a way to take the >money and send out an unlock code (most likely via e-mail) and we host >the module. However the publisher that I got an e-mail from today would >like to know how to setup the mechanism to send out unlock keys upon >receiving the fee. I would like to be able to at least give them some >ideas of where to start, what software solutions might be of use to >them. Whether these solutions are just software that they can buy and >use or is a service that they can pay for. So what are people's ideas? A >solution for these publishers, remember many of the publishers that do >not know how to setup something like this are small publishers so they >don't have a big budget. Thanks for any tips people have. Probably the cheapest way to do this is with a web form set up to solicit a payment from PayPal. Once the salesperson verifies the payment, he or she can email the unlock code. I did that for a while for paper copies of the World English Bible NT+PP. I don't do that any more. You get a free download or buy the book from a bookstore. Rev. Michael Paul Johnson Servant of Jesus Christ mpj@eBible.org http://eBible.org/mpj/ --=====================_14470447==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 05:10 18-12-02 +1000, you wrote:

Hey Guys,

        I got an e-mail today from a publisher that was interested in
distributing their work for use with The SWORD Project. When I send them
our permission request letter I give the following four options:

1) We offer your translations for free download with no restrictions.
As we exist as a ministry, this is the most desired option.
2) We offer your translations free for personal use, or with other
restrictions in the copyright notice.
3) We offer your translations encrypted and CrossWire or you can give
out the unlock code.
4) We give you the modules that work with our software and you can offer
it from your site under whatever terms you desire.

        Here is where I need some pointers from you guys. CrossWire does
not
want to be involved in the financial matters of exchanging money for
modules so we only offer to have the publisher setup a way to take the
money and send out an unlock code (most likely via e-mail) and we host
the module. However the publisher that I got an e-mail from today would
like to know how to setup the mechanism to send out unlock keys upon
receiving the fee. I would like to be able to at least give them some
ideas of where to start, what software solutions might be of use to
them. Whether these solutions are just software that they can buy and
use or is a service that they can pay for. So what are people's ideas? A
solution for these publishers, remember many of the publishers that do
not know how to setup something like this are small publishers so they
don't have a big budget. Thanks for any tips people have.

Probably the cheapest way to do this is with a web form set up to solicit a payment from PayPal. Once the salesperson verifies the payment, he or she can email the unlock code. I did that for a while for paper copies of the World English Bible NT+PP. I don't do that any more. You get a free download or buy the book from a bookstore.

Rev. Michael Paul Johnson
Servant of Jesus Christ
mpj@eBible.org
http://eBible.org/mpj/
--=====================_14470447==_.ALT-- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 18 05:48:49 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Rev. Michael Paul Johnson) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 15:48:49 +1000 Subject: [sword-devel] Copyright info plus corrections for Tok Pisin/Melanesian Pidgin Bible for PNG In-Reply-To: <1040152210.32038.168.camel@jhughes> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021218141557.04d1e5d0@mail.sil.org.pg> --=====================_20067145==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hey Jonathan: The Tok Pisin module on the Sword Project web site says that copyright information is unknown. I now make it known. Papua New Guinea now (since June) has a copyright law. It is likely that they will join a treaty convention which makes PNG copyrights enforceable in the USA and vice versa within a year. Therefore, it would be wise to ask permission to redistribute this text for free before that happens. The address of the copyright owner is: Bible Society of Papua New Guinea Box 335 Port Moresby, NCD Papua New Guinea I recommend asking in English, as most people in Port Moresby speak (British) English. The Tok Pisin text I downloaded from Crosswire.org had some rather strange quote mark notations. I corrected many quotation mark problems and some mismarked verse bridges, converted it to GBF (so that I could easily convert it also to HTML and some other formats for local use), and uploaded it to ftp://ebible.org/pub/new/tokpisingbf.zip for your use. I assume that you can quickly and automatically convert it back to RAW format or use it directly, as you do for the World English Bible and the HNV. Rev. Michael Paul Johnson Servant of Jesus Christ mpj@eBible.org http://eBible.org/mpj/ --=====================_20067145==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Hey Jonathan:

The Tok Pisin module on the Sword Project web site says that copyright information is unknown. I now make it known.

Papua New Guinea now (since June) has a copyright law. It is likely that they will join a treaty convention which makes PNG copyrights enforceable in the USA and vice versa within a year. Therefore, it would be wise to ask permission to redistribute this text for free before that happens. The address of the copyright owner is:

Bible Society of Papua New Guinea
Box 335
Port Moresby, NCD
Papua New Guinea

I recommend asking in English, as most people in Port Moresby speak (British) English.

The Tok Pisin text I downloaded from Crosswire.org had some rather strange quote mark notations. I corrected many quotation mark problems and some mismarked verse bridges, converted it to GBF (so that I could easily convert it also to HTML and some other formats for local use), and uploaded it to ftp://ebible.org/pub/new/tokpisingbf.zip for your use. I assume that you can quickly and automatically convert it back to RAW format or use it directly, as you do for the World English Bible and the HNV.

Rev. Michael Paul Johnson
Servant of Jesus Christ
mpj@eBible.org
http://eBible.org/mpj/
--=====================_20067145==_.ALT-- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 18 10:27:16 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Chris Little) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 03:27:16 -0700 (MST) Subject: [sword-devel] Copyright info plus corrections for Tok Pisin/Melanesian Pidgin Bible for PNG In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021218141557.04d1e5d0@mail.sil.org.pg> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, Rev. Michael Paul Johnson wrote: > The Tok Pisin text I downloaded from Crosswire.org had some rather > strange quote mark notations. I corrected many quotation mark problems > and some mismarked verse bridges, converted it to GBF (so that I could > easily convert it also to HTML and some other formats for local use), > and uploaded it to ftp://ebible.org/pub/new/tokpisingbf.zip for your > use. I assume that you can quickly and automatically convert it back to > RAW format or use it directly, as you do for the World English Bible and > the HNV. Would it be possible for you to post an SFM version too (if it's not too much trouble). I've been working on SFM to OSIS tools using your WEB SFM text and wouldn't mind just using that as a source format. We're going to have so much stuff in OSIS format quite soon that it will be necessary for us to write OSIS to HTML/ThML/RTF/... filters for Sword anyway. Your SFM materials are a lot nicer (more tame) to work with than some of the stuff I've seen lately. :) --Chris From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 18 12:03:28 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Pham, Khoi) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 06:03:28 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] Apocrypha book Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2A68D.79F05B94 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Recently, there are many people who are interested in reading Apocrypha books. I also Apocrypha book in the DRA module in the SWORD program. How can we readit? Thanks Internet Email Confidentiality Footer Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message and notify the sender by reply email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer do not consent to Internet email for messages of this kind. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of The Shaw Group Inc. or its subsidiaries shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it. _______________________________________________________________________ The Shaw Group Inc. http://www.shawgrp.com ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2A68D.79F05B94 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Recently, there are many people who are interested in reading Apocrypha books. I = also Apocrypha book in the DRA module in the SWORD program. How can we readit?

Thanks

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2A68D.79F05B94-- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Wed Dec 18 21:48:37 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Rev. Michael Paul Johnson) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 07:48:37 +1000 Subject: [sword-devel] Copyright info plus corrections for Tok Pisin/Melanesian Pidgin Bible for PNG In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021218141557.04d1e5d0@mail.sil.org.pg> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021219074140.01fd7148@mail.sil.org.pg> --=====================_78120220==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:27 18-12-02 -0700, Chris Little wrote: >On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, Rev. Michael Paul Johnson wrote: > >> The Tok Pisin text I downloaded from Crosswire.org had some rather >> strange quote mark notations. I corrected many quotation mark problems >> and some mismarked verse bridges, converted it to GBF (so that I could >> easily convert it also to HTML and some other formats for local use), >> and uploaded it to ftp://ebible.org/pub/new/tokpisingbf.zip for your >> use. I assume that you can quickly and automatically convert it back to >> RAW format or use it directly, as you do for the World English Bible and >> the HNV. > >Would it be possible for you to post an SFM version too (if it's not too >much trouble). I've been working on SFM to OSIS tools using your WEB >SFM text and wouldn't mind just using that as a source format. We're >going to have so much stuff in OSIS format quite soon that it will be >necessary for us to write OSIS to HTML/ThML/RTF/... filters for Sword >anyway. > >Your SFM materials are a lot nicer (more tame) to work with than some of >the stuff I've seen lately. :) Sure: ftp://eBible.org/pub/new/tokpisinsf.zip has a copy of it (or at least it will once the upload I just started finished). I'm not confident that verse bridges are handled correctly in this copy, as they look like one or more empty verse followed by a really long verse. For example, Ezekiel 48:30-34 is translated as a unit, so any references to Ezekiel Ezekiel 48:30 should bring up the text in Ezekiel 48:34. Maybe this should be marked as \v 30-34 Bikpela... instead. Rev. Michael Paul Johnson Servant of Jesus Christ mpj@eBible.org http://eBible.org/mpj/ --=====================_78120220==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 03:27 18-12-02 -0700, Chris Little wrote:

On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, Rev. Michael Paul Johnson wrote:

> The Tok Pisin text I downloaded from Crosswire.org had some rather
> strange quote mark notations. I corrected many quotation mark problems
> and some mismarked verse bridges, converted it to GBF (so that I could
> easily convert it also to HTML and some other formats for local use),
> and uploaded it to ftp://ebible.org/pub/new/tokpisingbf.zip for your
> use. I assume that you can quickly and automatically convert it back to
> RAW format or use it directly, as you do for the World English Bible and
> the HNV.

Would it be possible for you to post an SFM version too (if it's not too
much trouble). I've been working on SFM to OSIS tools using your WEB
SFM text and wouldn't mind just using that as a source format. We're
going to have so much stuff in OSIS format quite soon that it will be
necessary for us to write OSIS to HTML/ThML/RTF/... filters for Sword
anyway.

Your SFM materials are a lot nicer (more tame) to work with than some of
the stuff I've seen lately. :)

Sure: ftp://eBible.org/pub/new/tokpisinsf.zip has a copy of it (or at least it will once the upload I just started finished). I'm not confident that verse bridges are handled correctly in this copy, as they look like one or more empty verse followed by a really long verse. For example, Ezekiel 48:30-34 is translated as a unit, so any references to Ezekiel Ezekiel 48:30 should bring up the text in Ezekiel 48:34. Maybe this should be marked as
\v 30-34 Bikpela...
instead.

Rev. Michael Paul Johnson
Servant of Jesus Christ
mpj@eBible.org
http://eBible.org/mpj/
--=====================_78120220==_.ALT-- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 19 13:30:52 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Don A. Elbourne Jr.) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 07:30:52 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] The Sword Website References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021218141557.04d1e5d0@mail.sil.org.pg> <5.1.0.14.2.20021219074140.01fd7148@mail.sil.org.pg> Message-ID: <005d01c2a762$d9edf740$a5620e44@dkv6pe0iben68t> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C2A730.8F2FD2A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are a lot of problems with the Sword Website. It has a lot of = validation issues as well as incorrect use of HTML. For example
= is used extensively on the site for indenting text instead of "Unordered = Lists" that the tag is for, and it is absent in some of the places that = it should be. If I could get access to the jsp and source files that = generate the site, I'd be glad to try to clean it up. by grace alone, Don A. Elbourne Jr. http://elbourne.org ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C2A730.8F2FD2A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There are a lot of problems with the = Sword Website.=20 It has a lot of validation issues as well as incorrect use of HTML. For = example=20 <ul><ul> is used extensively on the site for indenting text = instead=20 of "Unordered Lists" that the tag is for, and it is absent in some of = the places=20 that it should be. If I could get access to the jsp and = source files that=20 generate the site, I'd be glad to try to clean it up.

by grace alone,

Don A. Elbourne Jr.
http://elbourne.org

------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C2A730.8F2FD2A0-- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 19 14:10:29 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Joachim Ansorg) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 15:10:29 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] two new german beta modules Message-ID: <200212191510.29959.joachim@ansorgs.de> I added two new modules in the Beta section: -Book: Quran_de: The Quran in German. Only for testing, shouldn't be ever released as public module. -Book: Lutherpredigten_de: A collection of almost 60 sermons of Luther. Please test the modules so the luther sermons module can be put into the public section. Does somebody have a better name for it? BTW, the page which lists the beta module types does not display the books. Could this be updated, please. Thanks, Joachim -- Joachim Ansorg www.bibletime.de www.ansorgs.de From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 19 13:30:52 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Don A. Elbourne Jr.) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 07:30:52 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] The Sword Website References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021218141557.04d1e5d0@mail.sil.org.pg> <5.1.0.14.2.20021219074140.01fd7148@mail.sil.org.pg> Message-ID: <005d01c2a762$d9edf740$a5620e44@dkv6pe0iben68t> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C2A730.8F2FD2A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are a lot of problems with the Sword Website. It has a lot of = validation issues as well as incorrect use of HTML. For example
= is used extensively on the site for indenting text instead of "Unordered = Lists" that the tag is for, and it is absent in some of the places that = it should be. If I could get access to the jsp and source files that = generate the site, I'd be glad to try to clean it up. by grace alone, Don A. Elbourne Jr. http://elbourne.org ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C2A730.8F2FD2A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There are a lot of problems with the = Sword Website.=20 It has a lot of validation issues as well as incorrect use of HTML. For = example=20 <ul><ul> is used extensively on the site for indenting text = instead=20 of "Unordered Lists" that the tag is for, and it is absent in some of = the places=20 that it should be. If I could get access to the jsp and = source files that=20 generate the site, I'd be glad to try to clean it up.

by grace alone,

Don A. Elbourne Jr.
http://elbourne.org

------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C2A730.8F2FD2A0-- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 19 14:10:29 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Joachim Ansorg) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 15:10:29 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] two new german beta modules Message-ID: <200212191510.29959.joachim@ansorgs.de> I added two new modules in the Beta section: -Book: Quran_de: The Quran in German. Only for testing, shouldn't be ever released as public module. -Book: Lutherpredigten_de: A collection of almost 60 sermons of Luther. Please test the modules so the luther sermons module can be put into the public section. Does somebody have a better name for it? BTW, the page which lists the beta module types does not display the books. Could this be updated, please. Thanks, Joachim -- Joachim Ansorg www.bibletime.de www.ansorgs.de From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 20 11:34:43 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Bill Mitchell) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 04:34:43 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] two new german beta modules In-Reply-To: <200212191510.29959.joachim@ansorgs.de> Message-ID: How about "The Best of Martin Luther":) -----Original Message----- From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Joachim Ansorg Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 7:10 AM To: sword-devel@crosswire.org Subject: [sword-devel] two new german beta modules I added two new modules in the Beta section: -Book: Quran_de: The Quran in German. Only for testing, shouldn't be ever released as public module. -Book: Lutherpredigten_de: A collection of almost 60 sermons of Luther. Please test the modules so the luther sermons module can be put into the public section. Does somebody have a better name for it? BTW, the page which lists the beta module types does not display the books. Could this be updated, please. Thanks, Joachim -- Joachim Ansorg www.bibletime.de www.ansorgs.de From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 20 18:04:31 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Daniel Glassey) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 18:04:31 -0000 Subject: [sword-devel] Collaboration efforts for a front end In-Reply-To: <3DFA4F9A.5070701@vnet-inc.com> Message-ID: <3E035BAF.12257.4BA7EF6@localhost> Hi guys, I was supposed to take over from Sven on the wxWindows port (spatha) but haven't done a good job of it. Unfortunately I never got the hang of his vision for it and his ideas for supporting base classes which was basically about as far as we got before he had to go. If you'd be interested and would have the drive for it to design and implement the GUI I can help with the integration with sword library parts - you guys up for it? Note that having a cross-platform frontend still doesn't remove the use of platform specific ones - especially things like gnome, kde and macosx specific - they can be more integrated than a xp one can be. Regards, Daniel On 13 Dec 2002 at 14:22, Brian Pribis sent forth the message: > Hey quit reading my mind! I was thinking the very same thing. Has > anyone got the stuff to compile on windows outside of Borland? I tried > vcpp 6 and 7 but it loses its cookies real quick like (I just tried it a > couple of times and may not have things set up quite right yet)? I > think wxWindows would be a good bet and would be willing to work with > you (or anyone) doing a pilot to see how it goes. Maybe just getting up > a reader for the bible modules with search features and then cross > compiling for a few systems to see how it goes. > > Brian > > > Brian Yoon wrote: > > >With regards to Sword for Windows, BibleTime, & GnomeSword: > > > >Just some questions and thoughts... > > > >1) Has anyone considered using a cross-platform toolkit like wxWindows > >for this project so that we all can work on the same code, be able to > >compile on different platforms, and still maintain the look and feel of > >each respective OS? wxWindows is great and this would allow all of us > >to contribute to the same project. This would eliminate the need to > >re-invent the wheel for each OS. Therefore, instead of working on just > >an OS X port, we could port the existing front-end to wxWindows and then > >use it on all platforms. > > > >2) Are the goals for each of these different (ie. is one focused on just > >providing a Bible study tool and another focused on providing a > >full-featured Bible study and analysis tool like BibleWorks)? > >3) If someone wants to see an open source versin of a full-featured > >Bible study and analysis tool like the commercial software, BibleWorks, > >developed, what are the major components that are needed to be developed > >(ie. databases on morphologies, parsing, etc.)? > > > >-Brian Yoon From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 20 19:46:15 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Lisa Stapp) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:46:15 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] two new german beta modules References: Message-ID: <006d01c2a860$76a903b0$1e81b4ce@LISA> ... this is going to be one large file to download! Luther said an awful lot! Lisa Stapp ICQ-27424429 Yahoo Pager-WorthyWoman http://www.hal-pc.org/~lisa/ http://www.osl.cc +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Poor human reason, when it trusts in itself, substitutes the strangest absurdities for the highest divine concepts. ... St. John Chrysostom (345?-407) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Mitchell" To: Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 5:34 AM Subject: RE: [sword-devel] two new german beta modules > How about "The Best of Martin Luther":) > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Fri Dec 20 23:26:44 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Joachim Ansorg) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 00:26:44 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] Copyright of unrevised german elberfelder Message-ID: <200212210026.44751.joachim@ansorgs.de> Hi all! Today I got an eMail from the pusblisher which holds the copyright of the german unrevised elberfelder bible (module GerElb). Beginning from 01.01.2003 the text has not copyright anymore, so we can unlock it! This is great! Joachim -- Joachim Ansorg www.bibletime.de www.ansorgs.de From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 21 15:26:34 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Patrick Narkinsky) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 10:26:34 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Greek to UTF8 conversion? Message-ID: Does anyone have (or know where I can get) code to convert Greek text from ascii to UTF-8? My starting point is the NA26 published by CCAT. I'd like to convert from the obscure format used there to utf8 as used in sword. Suggestions? For those curious, I'm working on some Greek vocabulary tools. In particular, I'm hoping to develop a very simplified greek<->english lexicon which might be of some use in the Sword project. Patrick -- Patrick Narkinsky - Apprentice Pastor, Hope Community Church "Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - Chesterton From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 21 17:51:27 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Joachim Ansorg) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 18:51:27 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] New german beta cult module: GerGreb1836 Message-ID: <200212211851.27317.joachim@ansorgs.de> Added the german Bible translation GerGreb 1836 in the beta area. It's a cult/unorthodox module. The text was kindly provided by Eric Podico. Joachim -- Joachim Ansorg www.bibletime.de www.ansorgs.de From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 21 18:41:18 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (sword-devel@crosswire.org) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 23:41:18 +0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Greek to UTF8 conversion? In-Reply-To: Message from Patrick Narkinsky of "Sat, 21 Dec 2002 10:26:34 EST." References: Message-ID: > Does anyone have (or know where I can get) code to convert Greek text from > ascii to UTF-8? My starting point is the NA26 published by CCAT. I'd like to > convert from the obscure format used there to utf8 as used in sword. > Suggestions? recode.exe or iconv.exe -- Victor Porton (porton@ex-code.com) From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 21 21:16:36 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Chris Little) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 14:16:36 -0700 (MST) Subject: [sword-devel] Greek to UTF8 conversion? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It might be a painful process for you. The utilities Victor mentioned would only work if the text were in a standard encoding, which it is not. They are in Beta encoding, the manual for which can be found here: http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/beta/key.html You only need the Greek parts, of course. For the Unicode equivalents, you can read the Greek codepoint chart at unicode.org. I would suggest using Perl to convert between the two, unless something else is more comfortable. Alternatives including adding a new encoding to ICU or getting the text elswhere, such as Unbound Bible. --Chris From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 21 22:57:58 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Hugo van der Kooij) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 23:57:58 +0100 (CET) Subject: [sword-devel] SWORD 1.5.5 bug in i18n code Message-ID: Hi, In my chase to get gnomesword work in Dutch I stumbled upon something I considere a bug. My Linux desktop is set to the English language but as a native Dutch speaker I prefer to do Bible work primarily in Dutch. For this I started gnomesword like: env LANG=nl /usr/bin/gnomesword This works well and the Bible books now show in Dutch. But I found that the proper code for the LANG variable should be nl_NL (or nl_BE for our southern neighbors). It might actually have the font code attached as well so it could be nl_NL.UTF-8 or whatever font you like. gnomesword hoever does not show the Bible books in Dutch if I use a proper LANG setting. I assume a fast fix might be to copy locales.d/nl.conf to locales.d/nl_NL.conf and locales.d/nl_BE.conf and ajust the conf file. I also noticed that the af.conf file contains the English names. To the best of my knowledge this should be en_SA.conf and the af.conf should look rather similar to the nl.conf file. I made myself a local copy for the language nl_NL but I assume this will be addressed in the next update of sword. A mechanism to check for a shorter version should be added to the code to handle this more gracefully. So if LANG is set to nl_NL.UTF-8 it will check for nl_NL.UTF-8.conf first then for nl_NL.conf and eventually for nl.conf before falling back to the buildin default. Hugo. -- All email sent to me is bound to the rules described on my homepage. hvdkooij@vanderkooij.org http://hvdkooij.xs4all.nl/ Don't meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are subtle and quick to anger. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 21 23:21:52 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 16:21:52 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] SWORD 1.5.5 bug in i18n code References: Message-ID: <3E04F790.9000609@crosswire.org> Hugo, Good suggestions. Yes, we're hoping to address this with a 'hierachical fallback' mechanism like you suggest. Want to do it? :) -Troy. Hugo van der Kooij wrote: > Hi, > > In my chase to get gnomesword work in Dutch I stumbled upon something I > considere a bug. > > My Linux desktop is set to the English language but as a native Dutch > speaker I prefer to do Bible work primarily in Dutch. > > For this I started gnomesword like: > env LANG=nl /usr/bin/gnomesword > > This works well and the Bible books now show in Dutch. But I found that > the proper code for the LANG variable should be nl_NL (or nl_BE for our > southern neighbors). It might actually have the font code attached as well > so it could be nl_NL.UTF-8 or whatever font you like. > > gnomesword hoever does not show the Bible books in Dutch if I use a proper > LANG setting. > > I assume a fast fix might be to copy locales.d/nl.conf to > locales.d/nl_NL.conf and locales.d/nl_BE.conf and ajust the conf file. > > I also noticed that the af.conf file contains the English names. To the > best of my knowledge this should be en_SA.conf and the af.conf should look > rather similar to the nl.conf file. > > I made myself a local copy for the language nl_NL but I assume this will > be addressed in the next update of sword. > > A mechanism to check for a shorter version should be added to the code to > handle this more gracefully. So if LANG is set to nl_NL.UTF-8 it will > check for nl_NL.UTF-8.conf first then for nl_NL.conf and eventually for > nl.conf before falling back to the buildin default. > > Hugo. > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 21 23:49:51 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Hugo van der Kooij) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 00:49:51 +0100 (CET) Subject: [sword-devel] SWORD 1.5.5 bug in i18n code In-Reply-To: <3E04F790.9000609@crosswire.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Dec 2002, Troy A. Griffitts wrote: > Hugo, > Good suggestions. Yes, we're hoping to address this with a > 'hierachical fallback' mechanism like you suggest. Want to do it? :) You can't be that desperate, or can you? I hope to solve the riddle of adding a language to installed red Hat Linux 8.0 setup and then continue to do the translation of GnomeSword in Dutch. I have struggled with code around the time of linux 0.9.5 because you needed to fix about 90% of the code that would compile clean on SunOS 4. Beyond that I have no C coding experience. Hugo. -- All email sent to me is bound to the rules described on my homepage. hvdkooij@vanderkooij.org http://hvdkooij.xs4all.nl/ Don't meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are subtle and quick to anger. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 22 22:18:48 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 15:18:48 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Re: tagging References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021222164232.012dc378@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <3E063A48.5090903@crosswire.org> > As I am understanding your directions, I am simply to put the yellow > brackets around the word or words used to translate the Greek term. Yes. > The root definition and morphological code is already supplied for each > Greek word. Yes. > I have not yet found how to do this yellow bracketing, but > I'm sure I will as I play with it with your instructions. Please feel free to ask questions if you need help. > What will I do when the translated word is supplied for > clarity (usually in italics) but there is not an actual > Greek word associated it This is addressed in the Help|Guidelines section on the main menu. In short, you will see a {FI}add words{Fi} looking construct in the English. These {FI} marks mean "Format Italics" and indicate where should should not tag, for the reason you expressed above. > or when I am translating an idiom such as "God forbid" > from MH GINOITW? We will be programmatically combining Greek tags that have been left empty, by certain rules. For example. We're not tagging simple definite articles. e.g. hO LOGOS ==> hO tag would be left empty, and LOGOS tag would surround "the Word". We'll then combine the definite article tags that have been left empty with their nouns immediately following (or separated by a postpositive) as long as the declensions are the same. All this to say, I would leave MH empty and tag "God forbid" with GINOITW. Then we can come up with a programmatic rule to find all empty MH tags and combine them with a following GINOITW tag, it it exists. These are great questions. We have a project mailing list that would really benefit from these types of discussions. If fact, I'll forward this message to the list. If you're interested, please feel free to join sword-devel by sending an email to: majordomo@crosswire.org with the body of the message containing: subscribe sword-devel We've love to have you. Thank you, again. -Troy. > > Pastor Norman Goos > 577 E. Jimmie Leeds Road > Galloway, NJ 08205 > Home: 609-652-2238 > Office: 609-965-5835 > FAX: 609-404-1253 > Web Page: www.christswesleyan.org > NOTE: please do not send un-requested "forwarded" mail of any kind to > this E-mail address, as it is not read and clogs up the mail box. This > mailbox will not receive attachments larger than 100 kb, unless > arranged with Norm Goos in advance. Thank you for your cooperation. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Mon Dec 23 10:33:03 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Joachim Ansorg) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:33:03 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] Unable to access crosswire.org Message-ID: <200212231133.03952.joachim@ansorgs.de> Hi! I get these error messages: type Exception report message description The server encountered an internal error () that prevented it from fulfilling this request. exception org.apache.jasper.JasperException: Unable to compile class for JSP An error occurred at line: -1 in the jsp file: null Generated servlet error: [javac] Compiling 1 source file at org.apache.jasper.compiler.DefaultErrorHandler.javacError(Unknown Source) at org.apache.jasper.compiler.ErrorDispatcher.javacError(Unknown Source) at org.apache.jasper.compiler.Compiler.generateClass(Unknown Source) .... ... ... Joachim -- Joachim Ansorg www.bibletime.de www.ansorgs.de From sword-devel@crosswire.org Mon Dec 23 21:14:04 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 14:14:04 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] tagging acts 5:4 Message-ID: <3E077C9C.7090104@crosswire.org> Hey guys, I could really use some serious help tagging acts 5:4 Anyone have time to look at it and comment? (or just tag it) -Troy. From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 26 18:29:12 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Ken Phelan) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 13:29:12 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] tagging acts 5:4 In-Reply-To: <3E077C9C.7090104@crosswire.org> References: <3E077C9C.7090104@crosswire.org> Message-ID: <200212261329.12541.kphelan@ix.netcom.com> On Monday 23 December 2002 16:14, Troy A. Griffitts wrote: > Hey guys, > > I could really use some serious help tagging acts 5:4 > > Anyone have time to look at it and comment? (or just tag it) > > -Troy. I'd love to help out. Although I possess only rudimentary skills in programming, I may be able to lend a hand. Is tagging simply taking the code and verifying/creating the proper pointers to the required reference? If not, can someone show me what is required and possibly an example. I'm a quick study. Ken From sword-devel@crosswire.org Thu Dec 26 21:19:17 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 14:19:17 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] tagging acts 5:4 References: <3E077C9C.7090104@crosswire.org> <200212261329.12541.kphelan@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3E0B7255.2080707@crosswire.org> Ken, The project page is at: http://www.crosswire.org/sword/kjv2003 It explains what volunteers would need to do, and you can find a screenshot a little farther down on that page that shows an example from John 1:1 that has been tagged correctly. Thanks for considering serving with us in this effort! -Troy. Griffitts wrote: > >>Hey guys, >> >>I could really use some serious help tagging acts 5:4 >> >>Anyone have time to look at it and comment? (or just tag it) >> >> -Troy. > > > I'd love to help out. Although I possess only rudimentary skills in > programming, I may be able to lend a hand. > > Is tagging simply taking the code and verifying/creating the proper pointers > to the required reference? If not, can someone show me what is required and > possibly an example. I'm a quick study. > > Ken > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sat Dec 28 05:29:38 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Timothy R. Butler) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 23:29:38 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] Bibletime RPM's In-Reply-To: <1038610926.29052.3.camel@fairlane.home.lan> References: <1038610926.29052.3.camel@fairlane.home.lan> Message-ID: <200212272329.43274.tbutler@uninetsolutions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Anthony, I think there is already a good RPM for BT on MDK 9.0. Texstar (of PCLINUXONLINE.com) has a package that works very well for me atleast. :-) Blessings, Tim On Friday 29 November 2002 05:02 pm, anthony kerr wrote: > If someone could point me to some clear instructions about how to make > an RPM of BT I could do it for Mandrake 9 (right now I wouldn't have a > clue how to do it). I have an unchanged install of the download > edition, perhaps this would save Brook doing a full reinstall. > Particularly if Brook has KDE 3.1 running. > > > in Christ > anthony - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler tbutler@uninetsolutions.com Universal Networks http://www.uninet.info Christian Portal and Search Tool: http://www.faithtree.com Enterprise Open Source Journal: http://www.ofb.biz ============= "Christian Web Services Since 1996" ============== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+DTbGK37Cns9gJ0gRAiJyAJ9MLzJinbYn+R0XQ1ib2oLTZbFojwCdGWG5 V4Q/beXogCHAuso9X3M6bMU= =0W25 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 29 00:39:28 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Brook Humphrey) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 16:39:28 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] Bibletime RPM's In-Reply-To: <200212272329.43274.tbutler@uninetsolutions.com> References: <1038610926.29052.3.camel@fairlane.home.lan> <200212272329.43274.tbutler@uninetsolutions.com> Message-ID: <200212281639.28330.bah@webmedic.net> On Friday 27 December 2002 09:29 pm, Timothy R. Butler wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi Anthony, > I think there is already a good RPM for BT on MDK 9.0. Texstar (of > PCLINUXONLINE.com) has a package that works very well for me atleast. :-) > > Blessings, > Tim > sorry for taking so long I usually do them but my mandrake box is running the texstar kde 3.1 rpm's I have built bibletime and sword for kde 3.1 but dont really want to go back to the 3.0 code branch. So If you want them I have them and they are done corretly. Also I just repackaged allot of the modules as rpm's. It has been many years since I've redone them and now well I'm redoing them all. I've got about 20 of them done right now. -- -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- Brook Humphrey Mobile PC Medic, 420 1st, Cheney, WA 99004, 509-235-9107 http://www.webmedic.net, bah@webmedic.net, bah@linux-mandrake.com Holiness unto the Lord -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 29 05:12:05 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Charles W. Crary) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 21:12:05 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] icu-sword location Message-ID: <000201c2aef8$d4bcca60$0400a8c0@portnoy> I'm trying to build some of the C++Builder projects for Win32 contained in the 1.5.5 tarball, and it appears that they all reference another separate project called icu-sword. I've seen it mentioned in some messages as being in CVS, but I am unable to find it in the SourceForge repository. Can anyone give me an idea as to where I should look for it. Thanks for the help, Charles Crary ---------------------------------------- Charles W. Crary - charles.crary@cox.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities -- all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. --------------------------------------------------------------------- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 29 07:53:48 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (David Overcash) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 23:53:48 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] icu-sword location References: <000201c2aef8$d4bcca60$0400a8c0@portnoy> Message-ID: <000901c2af0f$6c4b9c60$5001a8c0@DAVE> when you do cvs checkout, change module name to icu-sword instead of sword... download them so taht sword and icu-sword are in same directory ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles W. Crary" To: Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 9:12 PM Subject: [sword-devel] icu-sword location > I'm trying to build some of the C++Builder projects for Win32 contained in > the 1.5.5 tarball, and it appears that they all reference another separate > project called icu-sword. I've seen it mentioned in some messages as being > in CVS, but I am unable to find it in the SourceForge repository. Can > anyone give me an idea as to where I should look for it. > > Thanks for the help, > > Charles Crary > > ---------------------------------------- > Charles W. Crary - charles.crary@cox.net > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; > for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, > visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities > or authorities -- all things were created through him and for him. > He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 29 07:25:36 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 00:25:36 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] icu-sword location References: <000201c2aef8$d4bcca60$0400a8c0@portnoy> <000901c2af0f$6c4b9c60$5001a8c0@DAVE> Message-ID: <3E0EA370.9090205@crosswire.org> And also be sure to use CrossWire's CVS repository, and NOT sourceforge's. http://www.crosswire.org/sword/develop/biblecs/cvs.jsp David Overcash wrote: > when you do cvs checkout, change module name to icu-sword instead of > sword... download them so taht sword and icu-sword are in same directory > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Charles W. Crary" > To: > Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 9:12 PM > Subject: [sword-devel] icu-sword location > > > >>I'm trying to build some of the C++Builder projects for Win32 contained in >>the 1.5.5 tarball, and it appears that they all reference another separate >>project called icu-sword. I've seen it mentioned in some messages as > > being > >>in CVS, but I am unable to find it in the SourceForge repository. Can >>anyone give me an idea as to where I should look for it. >> >>Thanks for the help, >> >>Charles Crary >> >>---------------------------------------- >>Charles W. Crary - charles.crary@cox.net >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; >>for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, >>visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities >>or authorities -- all things were created through him and for him. >>He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 29 17:12:35 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Christian Renz) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:12:35 -0300 Subject: [sword-devel] Copyright of unrevised german elberfelder In-Reply-To: <200212210026.44751.joachim@ansorgs.de> References: <200212210026.44751.joachim@ansorgs.de> Message-ID: <20021229171235.GA49123@web42.com> >Today I got an eMail from the pusblisher which holds the copyright of the >german unrevised elberfelder bible (module GerElb). Beginning from 01.01.2003 >the text has not copyright anymore, so we can unlock it! Wow! Thanks Joachim, this is indeed a good and valuable translation. I'm looking forward to using it! Greetings, Christian -- crenz@web42.com - http://www.web42.com/crenz/ - http://www.web42.com/ "Friendship is unnecessary, like philosophy, like art... it has no survival value; rather is one of those things that give value to survival." -- C.S. Lewis From sword-devel@crosswire.org Sun Dec 29 21:30:02 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Charles W. Crary) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:30:02 -0800 Subject: [sword-devel] icu-sword location In-Reply-To: <3E0EA370.9090205@crosswire.org> Message-ID: <000401c2af81$72dc7e10$0400a8c0@portnoy> > And also be sure to use CrossWire's CVS repository, and NOT sourceforge's. > http://www.crosswire.org/sword/develop/biblecs/cvs.jsp I figured there was a repository on the crosswire site somewhere, but never found it. I've been able to get in without trouble. Thanks for the help David and Troy. Charles Crary From sword-devel@crosswire.org Mon Dec 30 06:51:32 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Steven P. Ulrick) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 00:51:32 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] Error making Sword CVS Message-ID: <20021230005132.49b7e1c0.spu@faith4miracle.org> Hello, Everyone :) I've just tried to make the current CVS of Sword, and this is the error I got: make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/steve1/CVS/sword/lib' make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/steve1/CVS/sword/lib' Making install in . make[1]: Entering directory `/home/steve1/CVS/sword' make[2]: Entering directory `/home/steve1/CVS/sword' /bin/sh ./mkinstalldirs /etc make[2]: * No rule to make target `locales.d/ru.conf', needed by `installlocaleDATA'. Stop. make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/steve1/CVS/sword' make[1]: * [install-am] Error 2 make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/steve1/CVS/sword' make: * [install-recursive] Error 1 [root@localhost sword]# As you can see, the error occured during "make install". Make appeared to end just fine. I'm pretty sure I tried compiling after running "make distclean" and updating at an earlier time of the day, but I'm not sure, so I will try that, just in case I didn't try it earlier :) Thank you for your help on this issue :) Steven P. Ulrick From sword-devel@crosswire.org Mon Dec 30 23:00:51 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Joachim Ansorg) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:00:51 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] Error making Sword CVS In-Reply-To: <20021230005132.49b7e1c0.spu@faith4miracle.org> References: <20021230005132.49b7e1c0.spu@faith4miracle.org> Message-ID: <200212310000.51445.joachim@ansorgs.de> My fault. Please update with "cvs -z5 update -Pd" and try again running ./usrinst with your parameters. Joachim > Hello, Everyone :) > I've just tried to make the current CVS of Sword, and this is the error > I got: > make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/steve1/CVS/sword/lib' > make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/steve1/CVS/sword/lib' > Making install in . > make[1]: Entering directory `/home/steve1/CVS/sword' > make[2]: Entering directory `/home/steve1/CVS/sword' > /bin/sh ./mkinstalldirs /etc > make[2]: * No rule to make target `locales.d/ru.conf', needed by > `installlocaleDATA'. Stop. > make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/steve1/CVS/sword' > make[1]: * [install-am] Error 2 > make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/steve1/CVS/sword' > make: *** [install-recursive] Error 1 > [root@localhost sword]# > > As you can see, the error occured during "make install". Make appeared > to end just fine. I'm pretty sure I tried compiling after running "make > distclean" and updating at an earlier time of the day, but I'm not sure, > so I will try that, just in case I didn't try it earlier :) > > Thank you for your help on this issue :) > Steven P. Ulrick -- Joachim Ansorg www.bibletime.info www.ansorgs.de From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 31 05:09:47 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Keith Ralston) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 23:09:47 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] tagging acts 5:4 In-Reply-To: <3E077C9C.7090104@crosswire.org> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C2B058.8C7F0360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Troy, Here's my take on how to tag this. Let me know if this doesn't make sense or if you have questions. Keith P.S. Sorry about posting an attachment. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org > [mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Troy A. Griffitts > Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 3:14 PM > To: sword-devel@crosswire.org; Norman Goos > Subject: [sword-devel] tagging acts 5:4 > > > Hey guys, > > I could really use some serious help tagging acts 5:4 > > Anyone have time to look at it and comment? (or just tag it) > > -Troy. > > > ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C2B058.8C7F0360 Content-Type: application/x-zip-compressed; name="export.zip" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="export.zip" UEsDBBQACAAIAMW4ni0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADAAAAa2V5c0wuKVYwtTIBAFBLBwgjPAWSCgAAAAgA AABQSwMEFAAIAAgAxbieLQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIAAABudFXMSw4CIRAE0D2Jd6gDTLwCS4/gGodW SJhuA43E28tnMXHZ1a/qHmKigqjIdLjI5Dc0NwMWhYYeQRpbOPZwT6U8fp2YIukfRz493tIoW7Tw RXBlLEnFLrxT/JAfsEz96jWzaoFcVrvk7IzRFLuurIKDeMOj6rpu4q8X8wNQSwcIr7AxbXwAAAC/ AAAAUEsDBBQACAAIAMW4ni0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGAAAAbnQudnNz7c4BCQAADAOg9e/0bo8xGJrA BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACAnmsHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGPJQSwcI DZgyz0cAAABEwQAAUEsBAhQAFAAIAAgAxbieLSM8BZIKAAAACAAAAAMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AGtleVBLAQIUABQACAAIAMW4ni2vsDFtfAAAAL8AAAACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADsAAABudFBLAQIU ABQACAAIAMW4ni0NmDLPRwAAAETBAAAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAOcAAABudC52c3NQSwUGAAAAAAMA AwCVAAAAYgEAAAAA ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C2B058.8C7F0360-- From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 31 07:04:08 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:04:08 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] tagging acts 5:4 References: Message-ID: <3E114168.2000004@crosswire.org> Keith, I think you may have forgotten to sign and save the verse before attempting to export. I didn't see any tags in the export you sent. I appreciate you looking at this for me. I had help from another tagger already. I'm hoping they're the same, then I won't have to decide :) -Troy. Keith Ralston wrote: > Troy, > > Here's my take on how to tag this. Let me know if this doesn't make sense > or if you have questions. > > Keith > > P.S. Sorry about posting an attachment. > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org >>[mailto:owner-sword-devel@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Troy A. Griffitts >>Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 3:14 PM >>To: sword-devel@crosswire.org; Norman Goos >>Subject: [sword-devel] tagging acts 5:4 >> >> >>Hey guys, >> >>I could really use some serious help tagging acts 5:4 >> >>Anyone have time to look at it and comment? (or just tag it) >> >> -Troy. >> >> >> > From sword-devel@crosswire.org Tue Dec 31 18:41:51 2002 From: sword-devel@crosswire.org (Pham, Khoi) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:41:51 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] Problems Testing New Bible Modules Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B0FC.48543E36 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am a beta tester. I download the NAB and NRSV for testing. But after inslalling them, I ran SWORD, they don't show up. When I remove CipherKey=3D form the configuration files in mods.d subdirectory, they show on the tab, but I got exception error. How cam I test them? =20 Have a happy new year. =20 Pham =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B0FC.48543E36 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am a beta tester. I download the NAB and NRSV for testing. But after inslalling them, I ran SWORD, they don’t show = up. When I remove = CipherKey=3D form the configuration files in mods.d subdirectory, they show on the = tab, but I got exception error. How = cam I test them?

Have a happy new = year.

Pham

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B0FC.48543E36--