[sword-devel] OT: can you be a Christian evolutionist?

Chris sword-devel@crosswire.org
Sat, 22 Dec 2001 10:59:45 +1100

>Winning is getting more work out of a system than the equivilent 
>energy put in.

The laws of thermodynamics are all about energy and energy
loss. But the energy into the system called earth is the
Sun. And while the Sun is burning into space increasing
total entropy, it is powering the earth in the process.
A bit like I could drill for oil, burn the oil in a 
factory to produce widgets. Total entropy has increased
because the oil is burnt up. But I have created widgets
out of raw materials which is a reduction in entropy.
Since the energy loss from the Sun dominates any 
calculations about earth you're going to have to use
a better argument I think.

Jerry Kreps wrote:

>On Thursday 20 December 2001 23:50, Chris wrote:
>>The entropy arguments aren't that good. If you have a
>>mutation mechanism, and a selection mechanism, then
>>there can be a reduction in entropy. The question is, was
>>there enough time, and a big enough sampling
>>to result in life as we know it without
>>God. I can't see it myself. There are far too few
>>mutations and I never saw a mutation which
>>was a benefit.
>You fail to understand the central tenents of Thermodynamics.
>The three laws of Thermodynamics rules all science with a fist of 
>Iron, including the theories of evolution, no matter how they are 
>expressed.  "Mechanisms" of any kind, operating in any direction in 
>space and/or time cannot, of their own accord, in part or in whole, 
>escape the result of the entropy of the Universe increaseing.  
>Temporary decreases of entropy in a system at the expense of an even 
>greater increases in entropy of the surroundings cannot be sustained 
>to the point of 'evolving' life which, even by Punk Ek terms, 
>requires lots of time. 
>No exceptions have ever survived the challange.  I repeat the three 
>laws of thermo in the way I used to introduce them in my college 
>physics classes:
>They are like the laws of dating:
>1) you cannot win
>2) you cannot break even
>3) you cannot get out of the game.
>Winning is getting more work out of a system than the equivilent 
>energy put in.  Wout > Ein.  The classic windmill powered cars are an 
>Breaking even is getting work out of the system equal to the energy 
>put in.  Wout = Ein.  The magnetic drivers and the wheel with the 
>swinging weights are examples.
>Getting out of the game is having access to a heat sink that is at 
>Absolute Zero, enabling 100% efficiency at any Temperature.
>Normally, Efficiency = (Thigh -Tllow/Thot   IF Tlow is zero then 
>efficiency is 100% regardless of Thigh.
>In fact, Rule 2 is what allows us to understand Time and its flow.  
>We know from experience that rocks don't suddenly lift off the bottom 
>of a pond, rise to the surface and explode from it, throwing water in 
>all directions, climb through the air to the edge of an overhanging 
>cliff and attach itself permenantly onto that cliff.  If we saw a 
>video of that we would rightly understand it as being played 
>backwards.  If we say that event in realtime we would immediately 
>start looking for men behind the curtin.
>>The point is, a thoughtful Christian could possibly believe
>>in evolution. I realise it raises a bunch of problems, but
>>we shouldn't get all obsessive about this issue. I'm sure
>>the Enemy uses it for his purposes.