Hello Brian,<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2012/11/22 Brian J Dumont <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:brian.j.dumont@gmail.com" target="_blank">brian.j.dumont@gmail.com</a>></span></div><div class="gmail_quote"><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>1) I would suggest both of these as legitimate OSIS which you
could select between:<br>
<note n="1"><reference osisRef="Gen.1.3
Exod.26.15-Exod.26.30">Genesis 1, 3; Ex. 26, 15
-30</reference></note><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This is the alternative I'm hoping to be possible - but fear that it isn't. Durusau's manual, page 91 says: "A single osisRef cannot identify a discontiguous range of a work". But the validator doesn't complain about this.</div>
<div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>
or:<br><note n="1"><reference osisRef="Gen.1.3">Genesis 1,
3</reference>; <reference
osisRef="Exod.26.15-Exod.26.30">Ex. 26, 15
-30</reference></note><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This answer seems to keep popping up - but unfortunately it's not usable here since it doesn't make a difference between two separate references and one compound reference consisting two distinct ranges.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Here's a real example:</div><div>Matt 2:2 contains one note with three different references, like this in the printed version:</div><div><font color="#990000">Num. 24:17; Matt. 27:11,37; Mark. 15:2</font></div>
<div>Your method would make this into</div><div><font color="#990000"><note><reference osisRef="Num.24.17">Num. 24:17</reference>; <reference osisRef="Matt.27.11">Matt. 27:11</reference>,<reference osisRef="Matt.27.37">37</reference>; <reference osisRef="Mark.15.2">Mark 15:2</reference></note></font></div>
<div><br></div><div>The information about the two Matthew verses being parts of the same reference is lost. Or well, it can be carefully read between the tags: a comma followed by no space separating the <reference>s, instead of a semicolon and a space. But all structural info should be contained in the tags and their attributes, not between them.</div>
<div> </div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>One thing that I'm pretty sure is INVALID is a reference like:<br>
<note n="1"><reference osisRef="Gen.1.3
Exod.26.15-30">Genesis 1, 3; Ex. 26, 15
-30</reference></note><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, Exod.26.16-30 is definitely not a valid osisRef.</div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>or anything with nested <note>s<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This one I'm not quite sure about, and I'm actually starting to believe that nested <note>s actually might be the solution. DM previously said that they shouldn't be used, but it that's the only way to do this, then I might need to go that way. Nested notes do seem to be valid according to the schema, but if I understood right, the second level <note> tags should then enclose all references - <reference> and <note> aren't allowed as siblings.</div>
<div><br></div><div>But I'm hoping someone will still give me something better than that.</div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>2)mostly covered above, but let me expound:<br>
<note n="1"><p>This note gives explanation of why
these references are here, including <reference
osisRef="Gen.1.3">Genesis 1,
3</reference></note>.</p><p>This second
paragraph within the same note goes on to say <reference
osisRef="Exod.26.15-Exod.26.30">Ex. 26, 15
-30</reference></p></note><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I'm afraid you didn't get my question right. I didn't explain it too exactly now since I had done it earlier. Here's an example (with imaginary verses):</div>
<div><br></div><div><font color="#990000"><verse osisID="Matt.2.1" sID.../> ...<note><reference osisRef="</font><font color="#009900">crossreferences from Matt. 4:12 and 4:16</font><font color="#990000">"></note><verse eID.../></font></div>
<div><font color="#990000">...</font></div><div><font color="#990000"><verse osisID="Matt.4.12" sID.../>Verse text ... <note osisID="</font><font color="#009900">crossreferences from Matt. 4:12 and 4:16</font><font color="#990000">"><reference osisRef="Luke.2.5">Luke 2:5</reference></note><verse eID.../></font></div>
<div><br></div><div>So what I need at Matt 2.1 is not a crossreference pointing at verses Matt. 4:12,16 but a reference saying: <font color="#990000">"use the same crossreferences here as at Matt. 4:12,16"</font>. And to be exact: NOT <font color="#990000">"use the same references here as at Matt. 4:12 and at Matt. 4:16"</font>, but indeed <font color="#990000">"the references defined for the combination of Matt. 4:12,16"</font>.</div>
<div>The green text in the examples is the part that needs to be replaced by something valid.</div><div><br></div><div>Don't blame me - I didn't make these peculiar indirect references. ;)</div><div><br></div><div>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>
3) To my understanding this is allowed in OSIS but unsupported and
hence I would avoid.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This is also a rather peculiar type of a reference, since it is a vague one: it just says for example "to the second part of the verse", without specifying exactly what the second part is. So I need even the markup to be vague. As long as the reference can normally be interpreted to point at the main verse and the extension gets ignored, I'm fine. And then some tailored application might take use of the extension - or one day someone might define and add the exact targets for these references to our Bible OSIS file.</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Markku</div><div><br></div><div> </div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div><div><div class="h5">
On 11/22/2012 09:40 AM, Markku Pihlaja wrote:<br>
</div></div></div>
<blockquote type="cite"><div><div class="h5">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'm feeling a bit alone here now - quite a few questions
still remain unanswered after several days, and they are
rather crucial for me to continue my work.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>To make answering easier, I'll sum up some more: there are
now three fundamental questions that need answers - all other
questions are actually derived from trying to solve them. So
if you can't find answers to these three (marked with Roman
numbers I...III), feel free to help with the previous ones
(Arabic numbers 1...7 - or actually 2...6; 1 and 7 are the
same as I and III).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>---------------------------</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><font color="#6600cc"><b>I.</b> How do I markup a single
but compound cross-reference that refers to non-adjacent
verses or ranges, so that it (structurally) differs from a
(more typical) note containing separate references to the
same verses/ranges?</font></div>
<div><font color="#6600cc"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font color="#6600cc"><b>II.</b> How do I markup a
reference to a note whose source is more complex than just
one verse or a contiguous range?</font></div>
<div><font color="#6600cc"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font color="#6600cc"><b>III.</b> Is it possible to have a
reference's osisRef with a sub-identifier without a
corresponding osisID having that (or any) sub-identifier?</font></div>
<div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><b><br>
</b></div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">Example:</div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#990000"><verse osisID="<b>Deut.32.15</b>"
sID="Deut.32.15" />Jeshurun grew fat and kicked; filled
with food, he became heavy and sleek. He abandoned the God
who made him and rejected the Rock his Savior.<verse
eID="Deut.32.15" /></font></div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">...</div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#990000"><reference osisRef="<b>Deut.32.15!part2</b>"></font></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>---------------------------</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>And then to the wider variety of derived questions. No need
to read further if you managed to answer all three previous
ones :).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I tried running different kinds of osisIDs through a
validator integrated to oXygen. As expected, a hyphen in an
osisID wouldn't validate. But the list of multiple
space-separated single IDs does pass the validation.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Well, if we trust in what passes through the validator, I
get answers to many of my own questions (IF we trust the
validator, that is):</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><font style="font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif" color="#3333ff"><b>2)</b> Is listing multiple individual
osisIDs separated by a space really allowed in <b>a)</b>osisIDs <b>b)</b> osisRefs?</font><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"> </span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">a)
YES and b) YES, e</span>ven though after carefully examining
the type declarations for osisRefRegex and osisIDRegex in the
osisCore.2.1.1.xsd file I still haven't found out how the
spaces could be valid.</div>
<div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
</span></div>
<div><font style="font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif" color="#3333ff"><b>3)</b> If the answer to 2a) is yes,
what is allowed with a compound ID like that? </font></div>
</div>
<div>It seems that any valid osisID will do as a component of
such a compound osisID. </div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><font style="font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif" color="#3333ff">Specifically, can I use sub-identifiers?</font><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>Thus: YES. But the exclamation mark and sub-identifier will
need to be attached to one of the component IDs, it can't
follow a space.</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#3333ff"><b>4)</b> If the answer to 2b) is yes,
what is allowed in that compound ref? Specifically, are
ranges allowed in such compound refs?</font></div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>Trying with a validator, it seems: YES. For example, this
is judged valid:</div>
<div><font color="#990000">osisRef="Gen.1.3 Gen.1.5-Gen.1.7
Gen.2.2-Gen.2.5"</font></div>
<div>even though Durusay's manual says that "a single osisRef
cannot identify a discontiguous range of a work".</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This would seem to provide a step closer to being able to
refer to notes with the more complex sources I've been talking
about (question II.), although not quite. [Note that this
wouldn't apply to normal compound references to verses].</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This would be valid:</div>
<div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.800000190734863px;color:rgb(153,0,0)"><note
type="crossReference" osisID="</span><b style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.800000190734863px;color:rgb(153,0,0)">Deut.32.15
Deut.32.17!crossReference</b><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.800000190734863px;color:rgb(153,0,0)">"></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">...</span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"><reference osisRef="</span><b style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">Deut.32.15
Deut.32.17!crossReference</b><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">">Deut.
32.15,17</reference></span></div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>although !crossReference being attached only to verse 17
gives a slightly false impression. Moreover, this would not be
valid:</div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(153,0,0)"><note
type="crossReference" osisID="</span><b style="font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(153,0,0)">Deut.32.15
Deut.32.17-Deut.32.22!crossReference</b><span style="font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(153,0,0)">"></span></div>
<div>because of the hyphen in an osisID.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My next idea would be rather unorthodox, and I hope you
consider twice before answering "no, of course that can't be
done". I would love to solve this problem in a beautiful,
"standard OSIS" way. But since nobody has given me a
sufficient answer to how to do it, it seems I need to get
creative, with the cost of some "standard" conventions.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The osisRefRegex and osisIDRegex type declarations (and
thus also validators) allow some slightly peculiar formats,
including "1.Gen.2", "1.2.Gen", "1_.2", "1._.2" and even "_".
Of course there is usually no reason to use these forms.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><font color="#3333ff"><b>7)</b> Would something like this
be acceptable?</font></div>
<div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"><note
type="crossReference" osisID="</span><b style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">Deut.32.15.Deut.32.17!crossReference</b><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">"></span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">...</span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"><reference osisRef="</span><b style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">Deut.32.15.Deut.32.17!crossReference</b><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">">Deut.
32.15,17</reference></span></div>
</div>
<div>or </div>
</div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.800000190734863px;color:rgb(153,0,0)"><note
type="crossReference" osisID="</span><b style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.800000190734863px;color:rgb(153,0,0)">Deut.32.15.Deut.32.17.Deut.32.22_Deut.32.26!crossReference</b><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.800000190734863px;color:rgb(153,0,0)">"></span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Funny as they look, they really are valid OSIS. So: what
reasons are there NOT to use them? I would of course document
this convention carefully. I emphasize the fact that I do need
a way to refer to *notes* in addition to verses and ranges. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Well, hopefully some of this is answerable.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks again in advance, and sorry for bothering you with
such long messages.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Markku</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>21. Nov 2012 Markku Pihlaja:
<div>
<div><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Thanks for the reply,<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2012/11/21 <span dir="ltr"><<a>davidtroidl@aol.com</a>></span><br>
<div>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<font color="black" face="arial"><font color="#990000">Deut. 32:15,17,22–26<font>
could be marked up<br>
<font><reference
osisRef="Deut.32.15">Deut.
32:15</reference>, </font></font></font><font color="#990000"><font><font><font color="#990000"><font><font><reference
osisRef="Deut.32.17">17</reference>,
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font><font color="#990000"><font><font><reference
osisRef="Deut.32.22-Deut.32.26">22-26</reference><br>
</font></font></font></blockquote>
<div> </div>
<div>I've tried explaining this earlier: that
just isn't enough for us here.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There would be no structural difference
between a note containing that one compound
reference that consists of three verses (or
ranges), and a note containing a list of three
separate references. The only difference might
be in the separator tokens, but those are
outside the markup and shouldn't count.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'll make the problem even clearer: how do
you markup this list of four different
references (I'll mark each with a different
color)?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">Deut.
32:15</span>;<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> </span><font color="#009900">Deut. 32.17</font>;<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> </span><font color="#6600cc">Deut. 22-26</font>;<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> </span><font color="#00cccc">Deut. 32:15,17,22–26</font></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This one is of course a rather imaginary
and unreal example - there would probably
never be a list where the three verses/ranges
are first individual references and then form
a compound one - but using the same verses
here shows the problem more clearly.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The note marker appearing in the text for
this whole list of four references should be
one single note, not four, so (as stated
previously in this discussion by DM) all these
should be packaged within just one pair of
<note> tags.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What you're suggesting would be a list of
six separate references, the three last ones
just being separated with commas instead of
semicolons, and the "Deut." being omitted from
the content part of the last two - but those
separators and the missing book names are
content instead of structure markup.
Structurally that would be the identical three
references listed twice.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><font color="#990000"><font><font>
<font>osisID's are meant to be unique
identifiers for <font>book, chapter
and verse elements in a bible. They
should not be used in notes<font>,
and they should not cont<font>ain
multiple references</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I don't quite agree, at least on not being
for use in notes, and nor does Durusau's
manual. For instance lines 2, 5, 8 and 11 in
the example on page 45 show notes with
osisID's. Also, osisID is listed as one of the
attributes of the note element (as well as
basically any other element, too).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Isn't the main purpose of an ID to be used
for referring to the element it represents,
regardless of the element's type? And I do
need to be able to refer to notes here, so the
obvious (and maybe even only?) way would be
using the osisID. I just need to find a good
way of naming notes with a source more complex
than just one verse, and referring to them.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--------------</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>About osisIDs not being able to contain
multiple references: about this, too, the
Durusau manual disagrees. On page 89 there's
the example</div>
<div><font color="#990000"><p
osisID="Matt.1.1 Matt.1.2
Matt.1.3">...</p></font>,</div>
<div>although I did wonder about the correctness
of this in my previous message, since I
couldn't find such syntax in the OSIS schema.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But if osisIDs really are only able to
refer to one verse, then I hope someone can
suggest an alternative method for what I need
to do.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> Markku</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
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