<div>Thanks DM,</div><div><br></div><div>(Others are also welcome to share their views! And also to check the one new question at the end, after the second "-----------" marker)</div><div><br></div><div>That didn't quite solve my problem. You say I shouldn't nest references. But I do need some way of making a difference between a compound reference and a list of separate references. An example:</div>
<div><br></div><div>In Gen. 46:12, we have three references: </div><div><font color="#990000">Gen. 38:7,10; Num. 26:19-21; 1. Chr. 4:1</font></div><div><br></div><div>The first one, to Gen., is indeed just one reference even though it refers to separate verses. As far as I can figure out, an unnested note wouldn't be able to tell whether Gen.38.7 and Gen.38.10 are parts of the same reference or two independent references:</div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"><note type="crossreference"></span></div><div><div class="gmail_quote"><div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <reference osisRef="</span>Gen.38.7<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">"></span>Gen. 38:7<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></reference>,</span></div>
<div><div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <reference osisRef="</span>Gen.38.10<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">"></span>10<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></reference>;</span></div></div><div>
<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <reference osisRef="</span>Num. 26:19-21<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">"</span><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">></span>Num. 26:19-21<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></reference>;</span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <reference osisRef="</span>1Chr.4.1<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">"</span><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">></span>1. Chr. 4:1<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></reference></span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></note></span></div></div></div><div><br></div><div>Of course, to a human those first two refs would probably look like one reference, but the computer needs to rely solely on the markup and not what's between.</div>
<div><br></div><div>If, on the other hand, I list that as three subsequent notes, the semicolons wouldn't be embedded in any tags and thus would be rendered even when reference notes should be hidden.</div><div><br></div>
<div><div class="gmail_quote"><div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"><note type="crossreference"></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <reference osisRef="</span>Gen.38.7<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">"></span>Gen. 38:7<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></reference>,</span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <reference osisRef="</span>Gen.38.10<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">"></span>10<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></reference></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></note></span></div>
<div>;</div><div> <span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"><note type="crossreference"></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <reference osisRef="</span>Num. 26:19-21<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">"</span><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">></span>Num. 26:19-21<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></reference></span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></note></span></div><div>;</div><div> <span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"><note type="crossreference"></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <reference osisRef="</span>1Chr.4.1<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">"</span><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">></span>1. Chr. 4:1<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></reference></span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></note></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"><br></span></div></div></div><div>I guess it is also true what you wrote about note tags: they represent the marker(s) in the text (even though most of our printed Finnish Bibles don't include markers within the text; the notes are listed after certain passages with references to the position of the note instead). Also this would imply that I shouldn't use the later example with three subsequent notes.</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>You mentioned one more approach, listing all parts of the compound reference in one osisRef. That would seem to work somehow:</div><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_quote"><div> <span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"><note type="crossreference"></span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <reference osisRef="</span>Gen.38.7 Gen.38.10<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">"></span>Gen. 38:7,10<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></reference>;</span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <reference osisRef="</span>Num. 26:19-21<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">"</span><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">></span>Num. 26:19-21<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></reference>;</span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <reference osisRef="</span>1Chr.4.1<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">"</span><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">></span>1. Chr. 4:1<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></reference></span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></note></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"><br></span></div></div></div><div>This osisRef / osisID style, however, is missing from Durusau's User Manual. There is section "15.4 Grouping" that does give an example of such notation with osisIDs, but "Appendix J - osisIDs: Construction Rules" doesn't say anything about this. And I've found nothing whatsoever about osisRefs like this. So is this certainly valid markup?</div>
<div><br></div><div>Also, assuming <font color="#990000">"Gen.38.7 Gen.38.10"</font> would be a valid osisRef, would also for example <font color="#990000">"Gen.38.7 Gen.38.10-Gen.38.12" </font>be? We also have a few compound references consisting of separate verses AND one or more ranges.</div>
<div><br></div><div>-----------</div><div><br></div><div>As for my question number 3) - the subdivision of a referenced verse - I tried to explain that there is no automatic or even easy manual way of determining where each subdivision of the verse begins. We would need a Bible content expert to do that, and we don't have one for this project.</div>
<div><br></div><div>So referring to a fine-grained position of a verse is no option since we don't know where each exact position would be.</div><div><br></div><div>I'll refine my question:</div><div>Is there any way of determining a "vague" division of a verse? For example, does the extension part of an osisRef always need to have a corresponding osisID somewhere? Or could we have a verse like this:</div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <verse osisID="</span>Xxx.2.14<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">" sID=.... /></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> Some text here. Some more text here. Even some more text here. And more and more text.</span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <verse eID="... /></span></div><div><div><br></div><div>and then have a reference like this:</div></div><div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <reference osisRef="</span>Xxx.2.14!c<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">">Xxx 2:14</span><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></reference></span></div>
<div><div>with just the osisID "Xxx.2.14" declared but not "Xxx.2.14!c"?</div></div><div><br></div><div>I know this is vague, but so is our current notation, and I'm trying to find some means of including the info in the current notation also in the markup. My plan B would then be to just encode all the references to the whole verse and let only the | separators indicate to the reader that the references point to different parts of the verse, just as in the printed versions now.</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>-----------</div><div><br></div><div>And now for one new somewhat related question.</div><div><br></div><div>We also have something that could be called indirect references. Our notation</div>
<div><font color="#990000">Gen. 24:7+</font></div><div>tells us that this reference doesn't refer to Gen. 24:7 itself, but it shares the references listed for that verse instead. For example, this Gen. 24:7 has references:</div>
<div><font color="#990000"><note osisID="</font>Gen.24.7!crossReference<font color="#990000">"></font></div><div><div><font color="#990000"> <reference osisRef="Gen.50.24">Gen. 50:24</reference>;</font></div>
</div><div><div><font color="#990000"> <reference </font><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">osisRef</span><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">="Deut.1.8">Deut. 1:8</reference>;</span></div></div><div><div>
<font color="#990000"> <reference </font><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">osisRef</span><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">="Josh.1.6">Josh. 1:6</reference>;</span></div></div><div><div><font color="#990000"> <reference </font><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">osisRef</span><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">="Judg.2.1">Judg.2:1</reference></span></div>
</div><div><font color="#990000"></note></font></div><div><br></div><div>Now when another verse lists "<font color="#990000">Gen. 24:7+</font>" as its reference, it means that this reference list should be used as the reference list for this verse, too. Unfortunately replacing the plus notation with the complete list isn't an option here - apparently the fact that these verses share the same references is of importance itself.</div>
<div><br></div><div>In normal cases, this would probably be rather simple: refer to the note in Gen. 24:7 with</div><div><font color="#990000"><reference osisRef="Gen.24.7!crossReference" ...>Gen. 24:7+</reference></font>.</div>
<div><br></div><div>But things get tricky when the referred verse in the plus notation is more than a single verse. We have notations like </div><div>"<font color="#990000">Deut. 4:41,43+</font>". or "<font color="#990000">Gen. 15:19–21+</font>".</div>
<div><br></div><div>We might be able to cope with the first one, assuming the "Grouping" notation discussed earlier is valid. But is it ok to add the sub-identifier "<font color="#990000">!crossReference</font>" to an ID like this: "<font color="#990000">Deut.4.41 Deut.4.43</font>", and where do I add it?</div>
<div><br></div><div>But it gets worse with the latter notation, since ranges aren't allowed in osisIDs - and thus I also can't create an osisRef "<font color="#990000">Gen.15.19-Gen.15.21!crossReference</font>". Or that osisRef might still be valid, but at least the corresponding osisID wouldn't, and thus that reference wouldn't make sense.</div>
<div><br></div><div>One solution would obviously be to use the osisID of just the first verse - that would mean "<font color="#990000">Deut.4.41!crossReference</font>" or "<font color="#990000">Gen.15.19!crossReference</font>" in my examples. But that is not possible since there might already be references for that verse alone. Also, omitting the other verses from the ID would mean that nothing at all in the markup would tell that this note is related to more than one verse:</div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"><note osisid="Gen.15.19!crossReference"></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <reference osisRef="Exod.3.8">Exod. 3:8</reference></span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></note></span></div><div><br></div><div>Any ideas?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Phew, these things are complicated to explain in an understandable manner... And impossible to do it with only a few short lines.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Once again, thanks in advance to those who take the effort of reading all this!</div><div><br></div><div>Markku</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br>
</div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote">2012/11/14 DM Smith <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dmsmith@crosswire.org" target="_blank">dmsmith@crosswire.org</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><br><div><div class="im"><div>On Nov 14, 2012, at 8:54 AM, Markku Pihlaja <<a href="mailto:markku.pihlaja@sempre.fi" target="_blank">markku.pihlaja@sempre.fi</a>> wrote:</div>
<br><blockquote type="cite">I'll also need to return to some questions that already got answered ages ago - halfway to meet my final needs, as it now turned out.<div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_quote">
2012/4/26 David Troidl <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:DavidTroidl@aol.com" target="_blank">DavidTroidl@aol.com</a>></span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><div><blockquote type="cite">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><font size="1" color="#999999">1)<br>
How should I encode cross-references to non-contiguous verse
ranges? For example, I have this reference (in our standard
notation): Matt. 27:17,22. This is formally just one
reference to verses 17 and 22, not two separate references.
OSIS requires that "a single osisRef cannot identify a
discontiguous range of a work". So how should this be done?
Making one note that contains two references might be a step
towards what I want, but there would still be two separate
references.<br></font></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div><font size="1" color="#999999">Here is the way to encode discontiguous references:<br>
<note type="crossReference"><reference
osisRef="Matt.27.17">Matt. 27:17</reference>, <reference
osisRef="Matt.27.22">22</reference></note></font><br>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>So, when I have a list of separate references, some of which are non-contiguous ones such as above, should I create a nested note to contain the different notes?</div><div><br></div>
<div>For example, if I have the following three references for one verse:</div><div><font color="#990000">Matt. 27:17,22 ; 2. Sam. 7:16; Matt. 9:27</font></div><div><br></div><div>should that be coded as:</div><div><br></div>
<div><font color="#990000"><note type="crossreference"></font></div><div><div><font color="#990000"> <note type="crossreference"></font></div><div><font color="#990000"> <reference osisRef="Matt.27.17">Matt. 27:17</reference>, </font></div>
<div><font color="#990000"> <reference osisRef="Matt.27.22">22</reference></font></div><div><font color="#990000"> </note>;</font></div></div><div><div><font color="#990000"> <note type="crossreference"></font></div>
<div><font color="#990000"> <reference osisRef="2Sam.7.16">2. Sam. 7:16</reference></font></div><div><font color="#990000"> </note>;</font></div></div><div><div><div><font color="#990000"> <note type="crossreference"></font></div>
<div><font color="#990000"> <reference osisRef="Matt.9.27">Matt. 9:27</reference></font></div><div><font color="#990000"> </note></font></div></div><div></div></div><div>
<font color="#990000"></note></font></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div>No. Don't nest.</div><div>You can also use references such as <reference osisRef="Matt.27.17 Matt.27.22 2Sam.7.16 Matt.9.27">Matt 27:17,22; 2 Sam 7:16; Matt 9:27</reference>.</div>
<div>Note that some systems (e.g. SWORD Project) cannot handle this. And having 4 refs is better.</div><div><div class="im"><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div class="gmail_quote">
<div><br></div><div>Putting all the <reference>'s within just one <note> container would to me mean one reference to extremely non-contiguous verses. And if I omit the outer <note> tags, then the semicolon separators between the different notes would fall outside any note and be rendered even when notes are hidden.</div>
<div><br></div><div>If that suggestion was right, what should we do in simpler cases where there is a group of contiguous references?Should I still enclose them in a second level of <note>'s for consistency, or would it be ok to use only one level like this (assuming here that there is no 27:22 in the first reference):</div>
<div><br></div><div><div><font color="#990000"><note type="crossreference"></font></div><div><div><font color="#990000"> <reference osisRef="Matt.27.17">Matt. 27:17</reference>;</font></div>
<div><font color="#990000"> <reference osisRef="2Sam.7.16">2. Sam. 7:16</reference>;</font></div></div><div><div><font color="#990000"> <reference osisRef="Matt.9.27">Matt. 9:27</reference></font></div>
</div><div><font color="#990000"></note></font></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div>Just one level. Just like this.</div><div><div><div class="h5"><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div class="gmail_quote">
<div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<font size="1" color="#999999">3)<br>
Our cross-references are currently listed on a
verse-by-verse basis in a separate file. Each verse might
have a number of references, most of them separated by a
semi-colon. However, in some cases the separator is the
vertical line character, | (or the pipe sign). This
indicates a fine grained division of the source verse.
That's *source*, not target. For example,<br>
Luuk. 2:4-7 ¦ Dan. 1:20<br>
would say that the beginning of the referring verse refers
to Luke 2:4-7, and the end to Daniel 1:20. There can be up
to 4 divisions like this in one verse. However, there is no
automatic way of determining what the exact division of the
source verse is. In fact, in some cases even I can't read
the verse and tell the division without reading the
referenced verses first.<br>
<br>
This means that in any case I'll probably need to leave the
OSIS coding vague in this respect. My question here: is
there a way to somehow indicate the existence of this
division within the tags, or is the only way to continue
marking it like it was done until now, like this:<br>
<reference section1a.... />; <reference
section1b.... /> | <reference section2.... /> |
<reference section3a.... />; <reference
section3b.... /><br>
<br>
Could that be done by using osisID's like<br>
Matt.1.1!crossReference.section1.a<br>
Matt.1.1!crossReference.section1.b etc.<br>
or is there a better way?<span><br>
</span></font></blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></div><font size="1" color="#999999">
I'm not exactly clear what you are asking here. If you want to mark
up the notes, without changing the markup of the Bible text, you
could use word numbers within the verse, to indicate where the note
applies.</font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>And I'm not quite clear if I got your point :).</div><div>Let me give you a quite precise example.</div><div><br></div><div><div>This is Acts 3:13:</div><div>
<font color="#990000">"The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go."</font></div>
<div><br></div></div><div>For that verse, we have three different references which are marked like this:</div><div><font color="#990000">Exod. 3:6 | Isa. 52:13 | Luke 23:16</font></div><div>The | separators (as opposed to semicolons that are normally used as separators in reference lists) indicate that the Exodus reference is related to the beginning of our verse, the Isaiah reference to the middle part and the Luke reference to the end.</div>
<div><br></div><div>As you can see, even though the reference list applies that there are three sections in the verse, there is no automatic way of determining what exactly are "the beginning", "the middle" and "the end", or sections 1, 2 and 3 of that verse. In some cases it is even unclear after you've carefully read the verse and the references and tried to use common sense based on the contents to manually figure out what those sections are. So the aim of placing the reference notes separately in the text exactly where they should appear is rather impossible.</div>
<div><br></div><div>My question is: is there a way of indicating in a reference itself that the source of the reference is some sub-part of the verse? In this way, applications might be able to e.g. show an extra tag "from middle of verse" or something like that. Could we use subdivided osisID's for this purpose, like this:</div>
<div><br></div><div><font color="#990000"><note type="cross-reference"></font></div><div><font color="#990000"> <reference osisID="Acts.3.13!crossReference.1" osisRef="Exod.3.6">Exod. 3:6</reference> |</font></div>
<div><font color="#990000"> <reference osisID="Acts.3.13.crossreference.2" osisRef="Isa.52.13">Isa. 52:13</reference> |</font></div><div><font color="#990000"> <reference osisID="Acts.3.13.crossreference.3" osisRef="Luke.23.16">Luke 23:16</reference></font></div>
<div><font color="#990000"></note></font></div><div><br></div><div>and with even further fine-tuning if there were for example two references before the first "|":</div><div><font color="#990000">osisID="Acts.3.13!crossReference.1.a"</font> and <font color="#990000">osisID="Acts.3.13!crossReference.1.b" </font>?</div>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div></div>From memory, there is a grain part of the osisID/osisRef that can be used to indicate the code points (think characters) that comprise the sub-part. It is used like SUBSTR in many programming languages.</div>
<div><br></div><div>However, If you are going to go to that much trouble then I'd suggest that you split the note into various parts and put them into the proper locations in the file.</div><div><br></div><div>The basic idea of the <note> element is that it appears in the source at the position that you want the marker(s). If you want one marker, then you have one note. If you want 3 then you have 3.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Hope this helps,</div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>DM</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div class="im"><div><div class="gmail_quote">
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for your patience, these are rather hard to explain exactly and understandably but in short :).</div></div></div><div><br></div><div>Markku</div><div><br></div></div>
<div class="im">
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