[osis-users] OSIS cross-reference questions

Sat Nov 24 10:33:25 MST 2012

On Nov 22, 2012, at 9:40 AM, Markku Pihlaja <markku.pihlaja at sempre.fi> wrote:

> 
> I'm feeling a bit alone here now - quite a few questions still remain unanswered after several days, and they are rather crucial for me to continue my work.
> 
> To make answering easier, I'll sum up some more: there are now three fundamental questions that need answers - all other questions are actually derived from trying to solve them. So if you can't find answers to these three (marked with Roman numbers I...III), feel free to help with the previous ones (Arabic numbers 1...7 - or actually 2...6; 1 and 7 are the same as I and III).
> 
> ---------------------------
> 
> I. How do I markup a single but compound cross-reference that refers to non-adjacent verses or ranges, so that it (structurally) differs from a (more typical) note containing separate references to the same verses/ranges?

There is no such thing as a single but compound cross-reference. In print there is no distinction other than what the reader understands. In software, it is a question of how software handles it. There are two different questions one might ask concerning software: What works today and what should work.

Basically in software, each reference will form a single link. The question is how many links do you want? Do you want one link or many? I'm familar with SWORD and JSword. In SWORD a link will bring up a single chapter, but JSword will bring up a page with the exact set of references.

The significance of this is that if you want it to work in the broadest set of software, each reference will be to a single chapter. It might make sense to have multiple references within the same chapter. But at least a single range will work well.

> 
> II. How do I markup a reference to a note whose source is more complex than just one verse or a contiguous range?
As separate multiple ones.

> 
> III. Is it possible to have a reference's osisRef with a sub-identifier without a corresponding osisID having that (or any) sub-identifier?
> 
> Example:
> <verse osisID="Deut.32.15" sID="Deut.32.15" />Jeshurun grew fat and kicked; filled with food, he became heavy and sleek. He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Savior.<verse eID="Deut.32.15" />
> ...
> <reference osisRef="Deut.32.15!part2">

Yes. But note, it will be invisible to the end user.

> 
> ---------------------------
> 
> And then to the wider variety of derived questions. No need to read further if you managed to answer all three previous ones :).
> 
> 
> I tried running different kinds of osisIDs through a validator integrated to oXygen. As expected, a hyphen in an osisID wouldn't validate. But the list of multiple space-separated single IDs does pass the validation.
> 
> Well, if we trust in what passes through the validator, I get answers to many of my own questions (IF we trust the validator, that is):
> 
> 2) Is listing multiple individual osisIDs separated by a space really allowed in a)osisIDs b) osisRefs? 
> a) YES and b) YES, even though after carefully examining the type declarations for osisRefRegex and osisIDRegex in the osisCore.2.1.1.xsd file I still haven't found out how the spaces could be valid.
> 
> 3) If the answer to 2a) is yes, what is allowed with a compound ID like that? 
> It seems that any valid osisID will do as a component of such a compound osisID. 
> 
> Specifically, can I use sub-identifiers? 
> Thus: YES. But the exclamation mark and sub-identifier will need to be attached to one of the component IDs, it can't follow a space.
> 
> 4) If the answer to 2b) is yes, what is allowed in that compound ref? Specifically, are ranges allowed in such compound refs?
> Trying with a validator, it seems: YES. For example, this is judged valid:
> osisRef="Gen.1.3 Gen.1.5-Gen.1.7 Gen.2.2-Gen.2.5"
> even though Durusay's manual says that "a single osisRef cannot identify a discontiguous range of a work".
> 
> 
> This would seem to provide a step closer to being able to refer to notes with the more complex sources I've been talking about (question II.), although not quite. [Note that this wouldn't apply to normal compound references to verses].
> 
> This would be valid:
> <note type="crossReference" osisID="Deut.32.15 Deut.32.17!crossReference">
> ...
> <reference osisRef="Deut.32.15 Deut.32.17!crossReference">Deut. 32.15,17</reference>
> 
> although !crossReference being attached only to verse 17 gives a slightly false impression. Moreover, this would not be valid:
> <note type="crossReference" osisID="Deut.32.15 Deut.32.17-Deut.32.22!crossReference">
> because of the hyphen in an osisID.
> 
> 
> My next idea would be rather unorthodox, and I hope you consider twice before answering "no, of course that can't be done". I would love to solve this problem in a beautiful, "standard OSIS" way. But since nobody has given me a sufficient answer to how to do it, it seems I need to get creative, with the cost of some "standard" conventions.
> 
> The osisRefRegex and osisIDRegex type declarations (and thus also validators) allow some slightly peculiar formats, including "1.Gen.2", "1.2.Gen", "1_.2", "1._.2" and even "_". Of course there is usually no reason to use these forms.
> 
> 7) Would something like this be acceptable?
> <note type="crossReference" osisID="Deut.32.15.Deut.32.17!crossReference">
> ...
> <reference osisRef="Deut.32.15.Deut.32.17!crossReference">Deut. 32.15,17</reference>
> or 
> <note type="crossReference" osisID="Deut.32.15.Deut.32.17.Deut.32.22_Deut.32.26!crossReference">
> 
> Funny as they look, they really are valid OSIS. So: what reasons are there NOT to use them? I would of course document this convention carefully. I emphasize the fact that I do need a way to refer to *notes* in addition to verses and ranges. 
> 
> Well, hopefully some of this is answerable.
> 
> Thanks again in advance, and sorry for bothering you with such long messages.
> 
> Markku
> 
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> 
> 21. Nov 2012 Markku Pihlaja:
> 
> Thanks for the reply,
> 
> 2012/11/21 <davidtroidl at aol.com>
>  
> Deut. 32:15,17,22–26 could be marked up
> <reference osisRef="Deut.32.15">Deut. 32:15</reference>, <reference osisRef="Deut.32.17">17</reference>, <reference osisRef="Deut.32.22-Deut.32.26">22-26</reference>
>  
> I've tried explaining this earlier: that just isn't enough for us here.
> 
> There would be no structural difference between a note containing that one compound reference that consists of three verses (or ranges), and a note containing a list of three separate references. The only difference might be in the separator tokens, but those are outside the markup and shouldn't count.
> 
> I'll make the problem even clearer: how do you markup this list of four different references (I'll mark each with a different color)?
> 
> Deut. 32:15; Deut. 32.17; Deut. 22-26; Deut. 32:15,17,22–26
> 
> This one is of course a rather imaginary and unreal example - there would probably never be a list where the three verses/ranges are first individual references and then form a compound one - but using the same verses here shows the problem more clearly.
> 
> The note marker appearing in the text for this whole list of four references should be one single note, not four, so (as stated previously in this discussion by DM) all these should be packaged within just one pair of <note> tags.
> 
> What you're suggesting would be a list of six separate references, the three last ones just being separated with commas instead of semicolons, and the "Deut." being omitted from the content part of the last two - but those separators and the missing book names are content instead of structure markup. Structurally that would be the identical three references listed twice.
> 
> 
> osisID's are meant to be unique identifiers for book, chapter and verse elements in a bible.  They should not be used in notes, and they should not contain multiple references
> 
> I don't quite agree, at least on not being for use in notes, and nor does Durusau's manual. For instance lines 2, 5, 8 and 11 in the example on page 45 show notes with osisID's. Also, osisID is listed as one of the attributes of the note element (as well as basically any other element, too).
> 
> Isn't the main purpose of an ID to be used for referring to the element it represents, regardless of the element's type? And I do need to be able to refer to notes here, so the obvious (and maybe even only?) way would be using the osisID. I just need to find a good way of naming notes with a source more complex than just one verse, and referring to them.
> 
> --------------
> 
> About osisIDs not being able to contain multiple references: about this, too, the Durusau manual disagrees. On page 89 there's the example
> <p osisID="Matt.1.1 Matt.1.2 Matt.1.3">...</p>,
> although I did wonder about the correctness of this in my previous message, since I couldn't find such syntax in the OSIS schema.
> 
> But if osisIDs really are only able to refer to one verse, then I hope someone can suggest an alternative method for what I need to do.
> 
>  Markku
> 
> 
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