[osis-core] Solution for the <chapter> dilemma
Todd Tillinghast
osis-core@bibletechnologieswg.org
Mon, 2 Jun 2003 10:40:50 -0600
I think the bottom line is that <chapter> milestones can occur just
about anywhere and we need to support the ability for them to exist just
about anywhere. At the same time we are not comfortable having a
<chapter> container just about anywhere and in fact that is not how we
would intend the <chapter> container to be used.
One possibility is to create two Complex Types for chapter.
1) One that is like <div> and would be generally used and
2) One that has no children and is always empty for use as a milestone
everywhere <verse> is allowed.
The encoding using <chapter> as a milestone would work like it needs to
but we would not be tending toward an ANY model, while at the same time
preserving consistent markup representation of the multiple overlapping
hierarchies.
The following "best practice" encoding
<chapter mS="X"/>
<div type="section">
<p>...abc...<chapter mE="X"/><chapter mS="Y"/>...def...</p>
<p>...hij...</p>
</div>
<chapter mE="Y"/>
could be viewed equivalently by software that provides multiple DOM
views as
<chapter>
<div mS="A" type="section"/>
<p mS="B"/>...abc...</chapter>
<chapter>...def...<p mE="B">
<p mS="C">...hij...<p mE="C">
<div mE="A"/>
</chapter>
This alternant encoding does not include any "unusually" children of
<chapter> as a container AND the first encoding does not have a
<chapter> milestone in an unusual location.
CONCLUSION: By creating a special "milestone only" <chapter> that is a
possible child of <p>, <l>, <speech>, <item>, ..., we can truly support
the two hierarchies that can overlap at just about any point, while not
opening the model up to an ANY type encoding.
Todd
> -----Original Message-----
> From: osis-core-admin@bibletechnologieswg.org [mailto:osis-core-
> admin@bibletechnologieswg.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Durusau
> Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 5:45 AM
> To: osis-core@bibletechnologieswg.org
> Subject: Re: [osis-core] <chapter> needs to be a child of <p> (and
> probably other elements.
>
> Troy,
>
> Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
>
> > Patrick,
> > I do understand your confusion. But to help clarify the
problem.
> > The BCV numbering from centuries ago sucked. MANY chapters begin
and
> > end in ridiculous places. Modern translations add sections and
> > paragraphs where the translators feel they are logical (which still
> > varies among translator teams). So, ANY TIME they disagree with the
> > traditional BCV divisions of thought/subject changes (which is quite
> > often) there will be paragraphs that start mid 'chapter' AND
> > 'chapters' that span paragraphs. They are 2 different hierarchies.
> > The first is modern translation decision, the second is traditional
> > BCV numbering.
>
> Thanks! That does help!
>
> OK, so the question is, for markup anyway (BTW, Peter Robinson, Wife
of
> Bath project, NA28 software advisor, has taken up my call for better
XML
> parsers), which hierarchy is going to be the dominant one and which
one
> will give way until we have better XML processing. (I will be sending
my
> promised notes on the Gnome xmllib parser later this week.)
>
> Since I think we decided to do B/S/P as the dominant hierarchy (at
least
> Kirk so noted), and B/C/V gives way, what does that do to the Chapter
> element?
>
> Hurriedly since I am packing and about to leave for the final
sessions.
>
> Patrick
>
> --
> Patrick Durusau
> Director of Research and Development
> Society of Biblical Literature
> Patrick.Durusau@sbl-site.org
> Co-Editor, ISO 13250, Topic Maps -- Reference Model
>
> Topic Maps: Human, not artificial, intelligence at work!
>
> >
> > Hope this helps,
> > -Troy.
> >
> >
> >
> > Chris Little wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 31 May 2003, Patrick Durusau wrote:
> >>
> >> Patrick,
> >>
> >>
> >>> Not sure how you can tell that a paragraph is divided? I looked at
> >>> the Logos version of the NRSV and it has a paragraph that starts
> >>> with Rev. 12:18, has a large 13 (I assume indicating the "new
> >>> chapter.") and then continues the paragraph to 13:4.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hmm. What can I say? The CEV guys don't understand how to do
poetry
> >> linebreaks, and apparently the NRSV guys don't understand English
> >> paragraphing. If you read roughly 12:13-13:4 without any
paragraphing
> >> marked, you'll quickly notice the change of topic that occurs in
13:1,
> >> when it switches from talking about a dragon to a beast. Sometimes
> this
> >> switch of topic occurs right at the 12/13 boundary. Sometimes it
> occurs
> >> in the middle of 13:1 (which usually indicates that ch 12 has only
17
> >> verses). The NRSV seems unique in having separated 12:18 from 13:1
but
> >> putting it within the same paragraph, still forcing a chapter break
> >> inside
> >> of that paragraph. I guess they're using NA27 versification with a
> >> much older paragraphing scheme.
> >>
> >>
> >>> I did not load the older English translations off the CD onto my
> >>> laptop, but looking at this one translation, it looks like the
> >>> "other" paragraph is entirely in Chapter 13? (Or is this an
artifact
> >>> of the translation? It does have the 12:18 you mention.) But in
that
> >>> case, isn't it splitting a verse and not a paragraph?
> >>>
> >>> If it is the last case, I really don't see a reason to let chapter
> >>> split a verse. Hmmm, ugly case that would require you to either
> >>> milestone the verse or the chapter. So what do transalations that
> >>> end with 12:17 do with the portion that is now 12:18? Just start
off
> >>> Chapter 13 with no verse text? Not sure how that would look.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I agree, we shouldn't let chapter split a verse. But it can split
> >> paragraphs. Even in the NRSV, there is a chapter end/start in
> >> mid-paragraph, but between verses, like so:
> >> <chapter 12>...<p>...<verse 17>...</verse></p>
> >> <p><verse 18>...</verse></chapter>
> >> <chapter 13><verse 1>...</verse>......</p>
> >>
> >> In the NIV & NASB, the chapter break occurs mid-paragraph and the
> >> paragraph break occurs mid-verse, like so:
> >> <chapter 12>...<p>...<verse 17>...</verse></chapter>
> >> <chapter 13><verse 1>...</p><p>...</verse>......</p>
> >>
> >> Both would appear to require <chapter> inside of <p> for milestone
> >> purposes.
> >>
> >> --Chris
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >
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