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Posted by pietro at Nov 25, 2009 7:54:36 AM
Morph dictionary in KJV with Strong's ?
Hi, I saw in bible module KJV with strong's in IMP format this reference:
<w lemma="strong:H01961" morph="strongMorph:TH8804">was</w>
Here are Hebrew and Greek strong's files but I can't find on this site dictionary, to which reffers this morph code. sad
Help me please.

Posted by ransom1982 at Nov 25, 2009 9:52:07 AM
Re: Morph dictionary in KJV with Strong's ?
As far as I know, there aren't any dictionaries that have the codes for the strongMorph. I don't know the history of why these are in there, but they have been confusing to many others, including myself.

Posted by dmsmith at Nov 25, 2009 11:22:44 AM
Re: Morph dictionary in KJV with Strong's ?
We don't have any module that provides definition for Hebrew morphology.

The numbers you see here, TH8804, are "Thayer's" numbers. We have not been able to obtain a Thayer's lexicon.

We've talked about coming up with our own lexicon for Hebrew that is akin to Robinson's for Greek, but have not done so. We'd use the these numbers to help map to the new codes.

But for the time being, they are nothing more than an internal detail of the module that should be ignored.

In Him,
DM

Posted by Osk at Nov 25, 2009 8:27:19 PM
Re: Morph dictionary in KJV with Strong's ?
These are morphology codes present in the OLBHeb database. You might call them TVM codes, since that's what the Greek equivalent are called, but they don't mark Tense, Voice, and Mood so that's a bit of a misnomer.

When we release a Hebrew morphology database, probably late this year or early next year, I'll try to include these codes as secondary keys.

Posted by mdbergmann at Nov 26, 2009 8:04:14 AM
Re: Morph dictionary in KJV with Strong's ?
... Tense, Voice, and Mood ...

Hmm, that's interesting. Are bible modules that have tags for this kind of information?


Manfred

Posted by Osk at Dec 1, 2009 9:31:12 PM
Re: Morph dictionary in KJV with Strong's ?
We have a few Bibles with TVM information. I believe all of the recent Greek texts have this info (TR, WHNU, and Byz). I don't recall whether this is included in our KJV's NT.

Posted by mdbergmann at Dec 2, 2009 8:11:15 AM
TVM information
We have a few Bibles with TVM information. I believe all of the recent Greek texts have this info (TR, WHNU, and Byz). I don't recall whether this is included in our KJV's NT.

Do you know some sources of information about this topic?
Does every verse or only a few contain such information or how does this look like?


Manfred

Posted by dmsmith at Dec 2, 2009 9:36:28 AM
Re: TVM information
For Greek we use Robinson codes. These are also in the KJV module and were derived from one of the Greek modules, TR I think, but am not sure. In the KJV module these look like:
<w morph="robinson:N-PRI">Abraham</w>
(I left out the other attributes)

The important thing to note about the morphology codes is that they don't give the morphology for the English, but the underlying Greek. In most places these match up.

In the NT Greek, every verse and every word should have it. Because the KJV will sometimes translate more than one word into a single word there may be multiple references as in:
<w src="10 11" lemma="strong:G3588 strong:G935" morph="robinson:T-NSM robinson:N-NSM">the king</w>

I've shown all the fields as found. The src="10 11" field indicate that this refers/translates the 10 and 11 word in the reference Greek text. lemma="strong:G3588 strong:G935" indicate that the 10th word has a Strong's number of 3588 and the 11th has 935. Likewise morph is a parallel array with the first reference being to the 10th word and the second to the 11th word.

In the KJV, sometimes a word in Greek is represented by more than one word, but there is a word in the middle:
<w src="4" lemma="strong:G1752" morph="robinson:ADV">for</w>
<w src="5" lemma="strong:G1343" morph="robinson:N-GSF">righteousness'</w> <w src="4" lemma="strong:G1752" morph="robinson:ADV" type="x-split" subType="x-13">sake</w>

type="x-split" means that this is a continuation of the prior word and subType='x-13' indicates the location of the prior part (this is where I get fuzzy: 13-th <w>?)

If you look at the BibleTool at the KJV for Matt 5:10, you can see how this plays out in that UI. When you turn on Strong's Numbers it will show the two parts as one.

Posted by mdbergmann at Dec 3, 2009 2:15:01 AM
Re: TVM information
Thanks for this explanation, DM.
But I'm a bit confused. Those Robinson codes are morphology codes. My question was about TVM, especially mood. Does our KJV contain mood codes?


Manfred

Posted by dmsmith at Dec 3, 2009 8:27:09 AM
Re: TVM information
The following gives the nature/definition of the Robinson codes, which for verbs include mood.

http://www.byztxt.com/download/index.html

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