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Posted by mdbergmann at Aug 20, 2009 12:37:41 AM
Re: MacSword 2 beta announcement

Now, perhaps the most irritating aspect of MacSword 2 is the search feature. The background indexing takes forever and eats up a whole core of my processor. I am using a 4,1 Unibody Macbook Pro with 2.4 gHZ processor and 4 GB RAM, and it took MacSword 20 minute to index the KJV.

Indexing is an expensive process. It needs a lot of CPU time. However the background indexer is a thread that runs at low priority and will be suppressed if there are other things for the CPU To to that have higher priority.
Also the background indexer indexes all your installed modules. Depending on how many you have installed the indexing process can take from 30 seconds (for maybe one module) to a couple of hours (if you have installed really a lot).
How do you know 20 minutes were used for the KJV? Do you only have the KJV installed?
Background indexing takes some time on the first start or whenever new modules are installed. The CPU usage might be a bit irritating especially on Notebooks when the fan comes up. But all this is totally normal for CPU intensive tasks.
But one the indexes are created you can search all modules instantly.


After all that, I at least hoped the search would work, but no such luck. After I enter a term and hit Return, simply nothing happens.

Sorry for asking this but it needs to be clear.
You changed to indexed search mode in the toolbar before entering the search string?
Did you try switching off background indexing?

Posted by mdbergmann at Aug 20, 2009 12:37:51 AM
Re: MacSword 2 beta announcement

I?should note as an experiment I completely erased all MacSword files from my hard drive, and installed 1.4 by itself. I installed some modules, and ran a search. The first attempt didn't work, but on the second try on a relaunch a few minute later, I got nearly instant results from the whole KJV. What is different between 1.4 and 2, and why does 2 take so long to index?

See above. You can switch off background indexing to get a similar behaviour than in MacSword 1.4 - indexing on request if no index exists.


I set KJV as my default Bible yet when I started a new Bible window, I got a different version first every time, with KJV listed under it. Does the default option really work?

Hmm, have to check this. Normally the default bible should get opened.
This setting also is for lookups in commentaries, dictionaries and genbooks for when you click or hover over bible references the default bible is used to lookup the text. This at least works.


One more question…Could the keyboard shortcut for returning from fullscreen mode be changed to the Escape key? It is much more Mac-like and intuitive, in my opinion. The Command-Option-F command is fine for entering fullscreen, but Escape seems more natural to exit fullscreen.

Yep I'll check this.


Regards,
Manfred

Posted by chasm at Aug 20, 2009 9:38:25 PM
Re: MacSword 2 beta announcement
I'll try to clear up a few things...

Indexing is an expensive process. It needs a lot of CPU time. However the background indexer is a thread that runs at low priority and will be suppressed if there are other things for the CPU To to that have higher priority.

This makes perfect sense, and I had a minimum of other apps running when the indexer was going, and it still took quite a long while. Just to compare speeds between both programs, I completely uninstalled everything and reinstalled MacSword 1.4. I got the indexing done in just a few minutes. Interestingly, 1.4 does not seem to have any option in the prefs or anywhere at all specifically for toggling background indexing. I have looked for it.

How do you know 20 minutes were used for the KJV? Do you only have the KJV installed?.

Tell you the truth, I'm not sure exactly what I had installed at the time, but when I did the said reinstallations, I still got that much a delay on the KJV, and I added the Strongs afterwards and it didn't seem to take quite as long indexing. I think it might have something to do with the KJV module itself, as I had to relaunch MacSword a couple times before it recognized the KJV module I had installed for 1.4 when I first used 2.
Sorry for asking this but it needs to be clear.
You changed to indexed search mode in the toolbar before entering the search string?
Did you try switching off background indexing?

Yes, I switched to Indexed Search mode. It's clearly recognizable from the normal mode, of course. As for switching Bacground indexing, I hadn't tried that, but I was reasonably certain it wasn't indexing anything anymore, since the application was snappy and responsive, and I hadn't installed any more modules.

Just in case anything I said isn't clear, here is a screenshot I took and uploaded just before typing this line. I get no result on any searches, even after waiting a while after entering a term.


mm, have to check this. Normally the default bible should get opened.
This setting also is for lookups in commentaries, dictionaries and genbooks for when you click or hover over bible references the default bible is used to lookup the text. This at least works.

All I know is that when I had that problem, it was because a different bible text I had downloaded before KJV at that time always showed up on top. It seemed the MacSword 2 preferred Bible texts first downloaded over user-selected default. I will note that I had deleted that other bible text before I ever activated background indexing, so the KJV was the only bible module getting indexed when I was having the indexing issues I mentioned earlier. I will also say that so far I've had no more problems with KJV not being the default in new bible windows, so I think that MacSword 2 really was choosing based on install order over default.

See above. You can switch off background indexing to get a similar behaviour than in MacSword 1.4 - indexing on request if no index exists.

See above. I mentioned that I could not find any such preference in 1.4. I sincerely looked very hard for it. :)

Anyways, I hope my posts are helpful. Thanks for working so hard on this app to make it better. :)

(By the way, is there a way to edit posts on this forum? I haven't found it)
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Posted by chasm at Aug 20, 2009 10:11:09 PM
Re: MacSword 2 beta announcement
Sorry for double-posting, in case it's discouraged practice on these forums (it is on most; can't be too careful).

The left side bar actually is hidden and shown using Core Animation and should actually be smooth but it isn't. Don't know why right now.
This made me just remove and add the side bar on the right without animation.
Probably there are some Core Animation settings to do this more smooth and I just didn't find them. :)

By this, you are referring to the smooth show/hide when I press the toggle button? I was referring to an option to have the sidebars always hidden unless I move the mouse to the appropriate edge of the window, similar to the Mac OS X Dock's ability to hide beyond the edge of the screen if you want it to. This option would be great in windowed mode, and super-totally-awesome-great in fullscreen, especially since the buttons to toggle the sidebars disappear in fullscreen. In my opinion, there should be an option to have both sidebars and the top bar hide from view until needed in fullscreen view. I am aware that I can manually hide the sidebars by dragging them, but having them all hide automatically would be oh-so-slicker and Mac OS X. biggrin

By the way, for some reason the fixed sidebar widths in MacSword 2 don't seem to work as well as they were... if I relaunch MacSword 2 after manually adjusting sidebar widths, they will appear back in their default widths and I have to readjust them again.
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Posted by mdbergmann at Aug 20, 2009 11:57:30 PM
Re: MacSword 2 beta announcement
Indexing is an expensive process. It needs a lot of CPU time. However the background indexer is a thread that runs at low priority and will be suppressed if there are other things for the CPU To to that have higher priority.

This makes perfect sense, and I had a minimum of other apps running when the indexer was going, and it still took quite a long while. Just to compare speeds between both programs, I completely uninstalled everything and reinstalled MacSword 1.4. I got the indexing done in just a few minutes. Interestingly, 1.4 does not seem to have any option in the prefs or anywhere at all specifically for toggling background indexing. I have looked for it.

MacSword 1.4 doesn't have this background indexer "feature". MacSword 1.4 _always_ indexes on-the-fly. The same does MacSword 2 if you switch off the background indexer.
Then indexing one module is faster than indexing many more.

I suggest you disable the background indexer, delete the index that was created by MacSword 2 and try again. Index files store for MacSword 2 are here:
/Users/<yourlogin>/Library/Application Support/MacSword/Index (Folder)
If you still have trouble, please send me the MacSword 2 log file:
/Users/<yourlogin>/Library/MacSword2.log


mm, have to check this. Normally the default bible should get opened.
This setting also is for lookups in commentaries, dictionaries and genbooks for when you click or hover over bible references the default bible is used to lookup the text. This at least works.

All I know is that when I had that problem, it was because a different bible text I had downloaded before KJV at that time always showed up on top. It seemed the MacSword 2 preferred Bible texts first downloaded over user-selected default. I will note that I had deleted that other bible text before I ever activated background indexing, so the KJV was the only bible module getting indexed when I was having the indexing issues I mentioned earlier. I will also say that so far I've had no more problems with KJV not being the default in new bible windows, so I think that MacSword 2 really was choosing based on install order over default.

Yes, for opening new windows or views actually also the default bible should be used.
I haven't checked yet but I suspect this simply is a bug.


See above. You can switch off background indexing to get a similar behaviour than in MacSword 1.4 - indexing on request if no index exists.

See above. I mentioned that I could not find any such preference in 1.4. I sincerely looked very hard for it. :)

I meant to switch off the background indexer in MacSword 2. MacSword 1.4 doesn't have this setting. :)


Anyways, I hope my posts are helpful. Thanks for working so hard on this app to make it better. :)

Thanks.


(By the way, is there a way to edit posts on this forum? I haven't found it)

I can edit them. I'll check in the admin section if this can we configured.

Manfred

Posted by mdbergmann at Aug 21, 2009 12:02:47 AM
Re: MacSword 2 beta announcement
Sorry for double-posting, in case it's discouraged practice on these forums (it is on most; can't be too careful).

The left side bar actually is hidden and shown using Core Animation and should actually be smooth but it isn't. Don't know why right now.
This made me just remove and add the side bar on the right without animation.
Probably there are some Core Animation settings to do this more smooth and I just didn't find them. :)

By this, you are referring to the smooth show/hide when I press the toggle button? I was referring to an option to have the sidebars always hidden unless I move the mouse to the appropriate edge of the window, similar to the Mac OS X Dock's ability to hide beyond the edge of the screen if you want it to. This option would be great in windowed mode, and super-totally-awesome-great in fullscreen, especially since the buttons to toggle the sidebars disappear in fullscreen. In my opinion, there should be an option to have both sidebars and the top bar hide from view until needed in fullscreen view. I am aware that I can manually hide the sidebars by dragging them, but having them all hide automatically would be oh-so-slicker and Mac OS X. biggrin

That's a good idea actually.
I will think about it.

What do you think of the full-screen view in general?
Actually it is not finished yet and is more like a "technology-preview".
You also can't enter search strings. I though of something similar for a search view that you proposed for the side bars.
Since the search text bar is in the window frame it is not part of the full-screen view.


Manfred

Posted by chasm at Aug 21, 2009 12:50:18 AM
Re: MacSword 2 beta announcement
What do you think of the full-screen view in general?
Actually it is not finished yet and is more like a "technology-preview".
You also can't enter search strings. I though of something similar for a search view that you proposed for the side bars.
Since the search text bar is in the window frame it is not part of the full-screen view.

In general, the fullscreen mode shows a lot of promise, and already serves its basic purpose well, that of removing nearly every distraction and making the text the key focus. With a few more enhancements, it would be excellent.

Here is my idea of what the fullscreen mode should be when finished. The interface should have the sidebars and top bar exactly as they are in windowed mode (with auto-hide), and the search feature could even work exactly as it does in windowed, that is the bible text view is replaced by the index lookup. Keyboard shortcuts for chapter/book navigation would be intuitive, and for mouse lovers, an OSX floating control (like in Leopard Quick Look) would be useful (and a user-defined preference, since keyboarders like me might find it annoying). Multi-touch trackpad support for scroll, text size and chapter navigation would be wonderful, but not absolutely necessary. On top of that, have separate preferences for text size and the hypothetical adjustable margins for windowed and fullscreen mode. If the text size stays the same between both, then either the fullscreen would seem too spacious or the windowed would seem too crowded.

By the way, would it be possible to implement an index-free method of searching? It can be used very successfully, like it is for file searching in EasyFind.

Also, thanks for enabling post editing! No more double posts from me. love struck

EDIT: After using MacSword 2 for a bible class, I have some more comments.

• If I go into fullscreen in a Workspace (not a single view), and I have more than one reference up in tabs, the right column will reset to a program set default width when I switch tabs, while the left column remains where I set it.

• More info on that "default bible" issue: Turns out I still have the issue with the bible I select as default not being the one that opens by default in new windows/tabs. I have concluded that MacSword is choosing based on alphabetical order of bible text names. I had only the Geneva1599 Bible and KJV (KJV set as default in prefs), and the Geneva1599 always came first. I uninstalled the Geneva1599 and installed the Wesley Bible, and KJV came first, naturally. Then I reinstalled the Geneva1599 to complete the test of this bug, and naturally the Geneva1599 came first in every new window and tab once again.

• If you resize the window really thin, the chapter/verse navigation buttons will layer underneath the menus in the toolbar, rather than disappearing and being replaced with a menu listing the hidden buttons. The text menus will also simply disappear when you resize the window narrow enough. Also, if you resize the window thin enough that the sidebars overlap and expand the window back, the verse button will be cropped off the edge (more cropped if you overlapped the sidebars more), and the scroll bar for the chapter list will be missing. To restore the buttons and scroll bar, you need to open a new window or relaunch MacSword.

• Background indexing is and has been off, and no searches are possible. Tomorrow I will try deleting the indexes again. (They were deleted when I completely erased all MacSword files from my hard drive to conduct a test of the indexing speeds of 1.4 and 2)

Weird, I've been using MacSword more than I've done any other computer stuff today... That's me, the beta software addict. (Would you believe I once found a big bug in a commercially released Mac board game, and got myself free access to the preview releases of the next version because of it? True story.) laughing
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Posted by mdbergmann at Aug 21, 2009 3:44:03 PM
Re: MacSword 2 beta announcement
chasm.

Thanks for your feedback. I just read briefly though it. Will do more later.
I just noticed that in your screenshot, the right side scroll bar is iTunes like. How did you do this?

Manfred

Posted by chasm at Aug 21, 2009 6:53:02 PM
Re: MacSword 2 beta announcement
Thanks for your feedback. I just read briefly though it. Will do more later.
I just noticed that in your screenshot, the right side scroll bar is iTunes like. How did you do this?

biggrin

I have iLeopard installed on my system. It unifies almost all of the Leopard GUI to the iTunes look. I will certainly miss it when I upgrade to Snow Leopard, since Apple has yet to simply unify their GUI between apps. Notice also the duller and more metallic "traffic lights" in my screenshot. That's iLeopard too. Apparently, MacSword must be using its own graphics for the checkboxes, or those would be iLeopard as well.
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Posted by mdbergmann at Aug 22, 2009 12:50:06 AM
Re: MacSword 2 beta announcement
Thanks for your feedback. I just read briefly though it. Will do more later.
I just noticed that in your screenshot, the right side scroll bar is iTunes like. How did you do this?

biggrin

I have iLeopard installed on my system. It unifies almost all of the Leopard GUI to the iTunes look. I will certainly miss it when I upgrade to Snow Leopard, since Apple has yet to simply unify their GUI between apps. Notice also the duller and more metallic "traffic lights" in my screenshot. That's iLeopard too. Apparently, MacSword must be using its own graphics for the checkboxes, or those would be iLeopard as well.

iLeopard, ok, nice. :)
No, actually the check boxes are normal Cocoa controls but are cells, no views, in the table view. Maybe this is a corner case for iLeopard which it can't handle.

Manfred

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